The Makeup Insider
The Makeup Insider is a fortnightly one-on-one podcast exploring the life and career of makeup artists, hosted by freelance mua Vanessa Barney.. Finding your community of other likeminded mua’s – the creative, artistic, talkative, flexible, adaptable with a good eye for colour kind-of-people, can often be daunting. Like, where do you start? The Makeup Insider is designed for just that. To build a collaborative online community of artists to build their confidence, connections and help drive their career to the next level.If you’re just starting out or have been in the industry for a long time, tune in now, check out the key takeaways in the show notes and subscribe so you never miss an episode. Find Vanessa @vanessabarney @the.makeupinsider
The Makeup Insider
Nichole Lee's Transition from Fashion Buyer to Freelance Makeup Artist: Overcoming Financial Fears and Starting Anew at 37
What does it take to pivot from a stable career to chase a passion at 37? Meet Nichole Lee, the face behind "Nichole Lee Makeup" on Instagram, who left her successful role as a fashion buyer to dive into the unpredictable realm of freelance makeup artistry. Nichole opens up about the emotional and financial hurdles she faced, highlighting the crucial role of savings and a supportive partner. Her tale is not just about makeup; it's about the courage to start over and the wisdom gained from life experience.
Nichole and I discuss the benefits of starting anew later in life, such as having a sharper focus and a stronger sense of urgency. We also tackle the challenges of transitioning from a regular paycheck to a self-employed income model and the importance of prioritising health over work.
Dive into the artistry behind Nichole's success where personal growth and professional development go hand in hand. Learn how she turned initial mistakes into valuable lessons and how her fashion background influences her makeup artistry. Nichole shares tips on building a professional network, leveraging social media, and maintaining authenticity. Whether you’re interested in makeup or contemplating a career change, Nichole's journey offers a wealth of insights, from mastering client interactions to the nuances of selecting the perfect lip color for diverse clients. Don't miss out on this inspiring episode filled with practical advice and heartfelt stories.
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Hi and welcome to the Makeup Insider. I'm your host, vanessa Barney, makeup artist, hairdresser, educator and all-round beauty junkie. If you've ever felt lost or lonely in your makeup career, this podcast is for you. I'm here to interview makeup artists and other industry professionals, to give guidance and be the mentor I needed early in my career. With a new episode every Tuesday, don't forget to hit subscribe so you don't miss a trick, and if you like what you hear, please rate and leave a comment. I hope you enjoy. Today on the Makeup Insider, I'm joined by Nicole Lee, and Nicole is a Sydney-based makeup artist. Thanks for joining us. Thank you for having me Pleasure pleasure. Can't wait to hear your story. First of all, are you able to introduce yourself to the audience and when I say that, let them know where they can find you on social media and let them know what you spend most of your time doing as a makeup artist so my name is nicole lee.
Speaker 2:Um, I go by nicole makeup on instagram. Um, I, as vanessa mentioned, I'm based out of sydney. Um, and I do hair and makeup, um, combined mainly do bridal fashion, um, and some other. You know other jobs that are like brand, uh, brand creation or things like that headshots, I do, formals, I do everything, but mainly bread and butter is probably bridal and fashion um, yeah great.
Speaker 1:So did you say brand creation.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so a lot of people are doing things like that, where they're um whether you know their jewelry brand, or they own a um beauty studio, and then they themselves, as owners, or the models, do brand shoots and then they I don't know, I don't know if that's what they call it you know like is that?
Speaker 1:what do you? What do you? What do you mean by brand create?
Speaker 2:do you mean like personal branding and things like oh, okay, yeah I seem to be doing a few of those now so yeah, I think there's a lot more personal branding.
Speaker 1:People you know are doing a sort of more personal branding people you know are doing a sort of more focused on their personal brand because of you know everything's video and people want to do social media. Yeah, I think I did actually two days of personal branding last week it is really fun actually, I think yeah, yeah. So, nicole, where did it all begin for you? How did you start doing makeup?
Speaker 2:so I started doing makeup. Um, back in 2017. Um, I quit my job. Um, just gonna dive right into my whole story. So basically, I um had a really late career change. So I was in the fashion industry since 2000. You know, we're going really way back now. So back in 2003, I graduated from fashion school and I was in the fashion industry, you know, doing everything fashion related, but mainly ended up being a fashion buyer. Basically, what that means is it's kind of like fashion design, but it's more of the numbers and sort of putting a range together, so it's more selection and development over creating something from scratch. So that was my job up until 2017. So you know, you can do the maths.
Speaker 2:You can kind of work out roughly how old I am and at you know you can do the maths. You can kind of work out roughly how old I am and at you know lovely age of 37, 36, 37, um, I decided to quit my job. I was in the industry for 13 years and 37 is not a very easy age to delve into something completely new. You know people say, oh, but you know fashion. That's kind of related it is. But in a sense the major difference, I guess, is that in that industry I was getting paid even if I was sick. I was getting paid super. You know, I was getting paid to take a holiday.
Speaker 1:You know, it's not a 9-5 job in the sense of I was getting paid to take a holiday.
Speaker 2:You know it was. It was a very it's not a nine to five job in the sense of that I was working nine to five. You know fashion industry, you know it's very intense and that's partly the reason why I left. But in the sense that I had a job that I went to, got paid and I didn't really have to scout for my own jobs.
Speaker 1:So that was, and you would have been quite senior. So you would have been, you know, you would have been quite settled and paid a reasonable income.
Speaker 2:Yes, I was established. I was managing three or four buyers under me. It was very much. You know, I was kind of the brand boss. You know I was making big calls, I was going overseas quite frequently, I was in charge of a lot of budget. So it was quite a difficult position in the sense that I was comfortable financially, I was comfortable in the job that I was doing because I was doing it for a long time, but at the same time, like I said, I was very burnt out. I loved my job.
Speaker 2:I still think back at it very fondly, but I'm glad I left when I did, because I just could not do it anymore, in the sense that one day someone just said something to me and then basically just had tingles in my body like my physical, my physical body just went no, like I think. I think you've had enough of this. You either need a break or at very least have a holiday. So my intention of quitting was actually to just look for another job but have a little break, because me, just as a personality, I couldn't look for another job while I was working until 11 pm at night and, you know, starting at 8 am and then on the weekends you're, you know, either working some more totally exhausted, or going overseas or whatever. So I didn't really have the time or the energy to look for another job. So I just kind of quit, gave my notice, did out the notice and then I was like, oh, you know what, I'll look for a job, you know after when I've got a little bit of time. And then, I don't know, I got another job, just didn't really feel right, left after six months the previous job that I had I was with like five years, three years or something like that, and then six months. And then I did another job and then it was like six months. I was like what is wrong? Like what? Why am I not satisfied? And then I started thinking about, um, maybe I just want to try something different. Like maybe, like my life is not how it's meant to be, and all the money and establishment, you know the sunk cost, like I was really thinking about the sunk cost of, but you know there's 13 years of experience, like I've worked so hard, established, but I, at the same time, I think I'm just not that inclined in thinking anyway, I think I'm just like you know what, if I don't do it, I'll regret it. I can always go back.
Speaker 2:So I enrolled in a makeup school, academy of Makeup, and then but funny thing is 10 years ago, prior to that, in 2007 I did do a certificate course there in Melbourne, in fact. Um, yeah, when I was there working in fashion, I was like you know what I had all the ambitions of you know what I'll do? Weddings on the weekends, because I was always interested in makeup wasn't really a thing back in early 2000s as a makeup artist. It wasn't really a career as such back then. You know, it's not like what it is now. And 2007 I was like you know what? I'm just going to be one of those people who will do. You know it's not like what it is now. In 2007, I was like you know what? I'm just going to be, one of those people who will do. You know, make up on the weekends and then have my full-time job. You know, imagine all the money I can make and how fun my life will be.
Speaker 2:Obviously, it didn't really work out because I was never here, I was never in Australia, I was always travelling overseas or working crazy hours. I did the course and I loved it, but nothing came of it because I don't think you can just dabble Makeup industry, especially back then, it wasn't a dabble kind of thing. And then so I thought you know what, maybe this is the time because 2017, beauty industry like blew up right like Instagram and everything. It was just all very happening. Beauty, because 2017, beauty industry like blew up right Like Instagram and everything. It was just all very happening beauty industry, beauty industry.
Speaker 2:So I was like, oh okay, maybe this is my time to shine. You know, maybe it's my time to have a little devil. So I did the course, loved the course, and then I got out of the course and then I was like could I imagine myself going back into doing fashion or going to the office working for somebody else? And I was like, not really, I don't think I can do that now. I don't know. I just feel like I can make something on this. So that's how it kind of began. I guess.
Speaker 1:Yeah, can I just interrupt and ask you something here? So you left a job because I feel like this the question I'm going to ask could be a worry of some. You know some people who are maybe 37 or around that age, or even, you know, older, younger, doesn't really matter the age. Actually Did you have financial fears at all about, like, leaving the job? And then, yeah, like how did you have the fears? Because you said how long was the course?
Speaker 2:for six months full time. Now I think it's a year um full time. Okay, I absolutely had fear. I've always had a bit of a money sort of anxiety. Anyway, whether I had money, it didn't have to be, it doesn't matter. I was always very anxious about money stability all those things that are ingrained in you. I was always very, very fearful of it. Luckily for me, I think the decision became a little bit easier because I did have savings. So I did have savings.
Speaker 2:Yeah, my advice for anyone who is thinking about it is I think you can't. For me, just personally, like everyone's different, I don't think you can make these sort of decisions without having something as, even if it's you know a little bit of savings. You can make these sort of decisions without having something as even if it's you know a little bit of savings, because I think you start making decisions that are not wise towards making, you know, financial decisions if you are too desperate so I think if you are then you start to take jobs that you ordinarily wouldn't take. Let's say, you never wanted to retail makeup, but then you take on those jobs because you're financially really strapped. If you want to take that path and that's the decision you made objectively, then you're fine. But I think if you're making those decisions one after the other, I think you're kind of setting yourself up to the path that you didn't really intend to take. So I think it is good to have sort of a plan of what you.
Speaker 2:I think it's quite a like, looking back, it was quite a reckless behavior for me to just quit, but it was reckless for me may not be for other people because I did have savings, enough savings for me to survive, you know, at least a year without working. That's quite a luxurious thing. I think that comes with starting later as well. I think that there's pros and cons in both. Having a late career change I think, you know, sometimes you do have that up your sleeve a little bit more and also my husband I am married. My husband, you know, had a full-time job. So that again was like a double-layer security blanket for me to be able to make that kind of decision. But even if I was single, even if I didn't have, you know, a dual income or another income to rely on, I think I probably still would have been okay.
Speaker 2:So from my circumstance, that's the only reason why I could take that sort of reckless behaviour, let's say, in voter commerce, because I think I was secretly preparing for that. So I call it excuse my French but after your money. So I was preparing that after your money, basically. So I had worked and worked, and worked. And not because I was resentful towards the work, I think I was just more resentful to myself to really investing so much of my energy to work. And I'm trying really hard not to make the same mistake now. Is that endlessness of work, because if you, especially if you love your job, I think that's a sweet trap, like a little honey trap, very much so, exactly Like, I think, a lot of artists can relate to this or any creative or anyone who likes their job.
Speaker 2:I think they can relate to loving your job so much and that becomes your security, blanket, your identity, and you end up you know you're like enjoying it so much, almost like the drive, the, the climb, the money, the acknowledgement or whatever it is. I was really loving the traveling overseas, making big decisions in fashion and that's great. But I think I just really did prioritize my health, never really took any holidays, just lived. You know, lived through my work, overseas trips, trips just went overseas for work. Why do I need to go on another holiday? I mean, I don't really do anything other than work. So but I couldn't distinguish the difference between holiday and just going overseas for the sake of going overseas. So I think I'm trying not to make the same mistake now. But yeah, I'm going on a bit of a tangent here. But yeah, I think the financial security mindset have changed a little bit for me, that I now can work the same amount of hours that I did in fashion and actually get paid for those hours, not have a cap, okay, on how much.
Speaker 1:I can make.
Speaker 2:Because I used to put in so many more hours. When I calculated out, yeah, sure, I was on good money, but if I calculate out the hours and divide it into my wage, I was getting paid not much at all per hour. Yeah, you know, that's something to think about. Now, if I work those hours, I get paid for those hours and I get to choose, which obviously does take time and it's still an ongoing thing. It's never complete right. And it's still an ongoing thing. It's never complete, right. But I am really grateful that I made the decision to sort of work for myself, because I think that's the main difference that I'm now working for.
Speaker 1:That's seven years ago. Yeah, yeah, yeah, wow. Did you do any part-time work in those when you were doing the course?
Speaker 2:No, I didn't because when I was doing the course, I think the advantage of the studying later is like a few different things that I play Absolute desperation. I was just desperate, I didn't have time to waste. You know, I'm not like a 19, 20-year-old. I have time. You know, like when you're 19 and 20 you've got. All you've got is time, whereas at 37 I may have a little bit more savings. But something that I don't really have a lot of is time. Like you know, I've already other people are already 12 years, knee deep into this career that I'm just starting this study like I just don't have time to muck about. You know, don't have time to think. So I basically seven years ago, I just thought about it. I was like, how do I make money while I'm even still just studying? So I basically signed up to task my uh airtasker and they had called Flare.
Speaker 2:Really with those, yeah.
Speaker 1:Oh, flare, yeah, it's okay.
Speaker 2:It's something that really helped me, then you know. I don't recommend it to everyone, but it worked for me because it was both of those. Things were really just starting out as well.
Speaker 1:So you advertised that you could do makeup on there.
Speaker 2:I started taking jobs, so basically, what happened with those is you're kind of like bidding for the jobs in a sense, or like air task like that and I started doing jobs and I can still remember the first job that I did makes me like then bless her.
Speaker 2:But I get she asked for that typical good old story of I get she asked for a smoky eye and I literally gave her black eye. Like it was like charcoal, like go in there like hard, like get that black on there, you know, as hard, as opaque as possible, and yeah, there you go. So, yeah, so a smoke bomb eye. It's not not really a smokey eye, I would call it more like a charcoal, you know, like blackboard, you know more that way.
Speaker 1:Do you have any photos of it? I'm sure I do. Did you take photos? Not that you have to show us, but I just yeah, I just wonder if you do.
Speaker 2:You feel a little bit sick inside like you just go and bless her. She was so like was so nice about it, but that was throughout hair tasker and I started taking jobs. You know, $50, $6, $80. You know, I was even doing hair. Think about the boldness If I think about it now, like I just go oh yeah, sure, of course I can. I mean, you know, we learn how to curl hair. Oh, I can do it, no problem, I can do it. So I just started taking these jobs. But the thing that I did was I made sure that I started off really cheap because I was like, okay, I have no experience. These people are only way they'll book me is through that and I'll start to accumulate more photos and then I'll be able to put my prices up once I have my experience. So you know, I was charging $50, $60 for hair and makeup, like $80 for hair and makeup. That was while I was studying.
Speaker 1:But you were getting your experience. That's great, and you were getting paid.
Speaker 2:So many faces to paint. So many interactions, getting the feel for what I'm good at, what I'm not good at, what I tend to gravitate towards, what people's reactions are. So many faces, you know, I just kind of like I'll rock up and you know, you learn, you learn through those sort of interactions and you know, low risk. These are low risk. If someone's paying you $50, like for hair and makeup, I think their expectations are not that high, you know. I mean maybe are, but yeah, I, the pressure is kind of a little bit less. So I started doing that, which meant that even like straight after school, I had a client base, like I had people who I was like getting referred, and you know it's not, as you know, glamorous. It sounds I'm talking like five people, but still, you know, like it's still amazing considering you're straight out of school, you know.
Speaker 2:So I started getting a little bit more like reviews on these platforms. I was like reaching out to all the platforms, every platform that was out there I was signed up to and I was even like, okay, where's the job coming from? But there was something that was on every week. I had something on every week like which is so, so lucky, so lucky, the timing was so good. But I think because I was really gutsy about it, I think I the shame, the embarrassment, anything, anything like that, I just put aside because I was desperate. I was just that desperation, but without the financial desperation. I think that's because I was willing to do the $50 and drive 18 minutes. Don't worry about the trouble fee, I'll come to you.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, yeah, because you sort of you got like you saw what you were getting out of it as well and I just think that's oh, that's awesome, nicole. I think that's a really great thing that any new artist can do, or even anyone if they've relocated. You know what I mean. They want to get a feel for the area and also, like just the fact that you've got to. You know, then pack up your kit, like unpack your kit, just sort of get you into the flow, what you need, your setup, because your setup's really important. I don't think there's enough importance put on your setup, to be honest. Yeah, that's great, you can, we can I ask you about the smoky eye lady? Did she leave it like that or did you have to change it?
Speaker 2:she left great, I think, and I was really upfront, like I don't try to, you know, I don't try to be like I'm like really great at hair, I'm really great at makeup, like I was like, look, I'm just still studying, you know, I, you know, please let me know. Blah blah, blah, blah. So it wasn't like she was thinking that she was getting this very experienced artist who was blah blah, you know, it wasn't like that and she left. The funny thing is she left her wallet in the nail place that she was getting her nail done. So I drove her to the nail place so she could get her wallet. I mean, she had already paid by this stage and I couldn't do that yeah yeah, so she, I drove her to the thing.
Speaker 2:She was so grateful and she was like you know, thank you. You know, and we left it on a really good note and she left me a nice review and she even posted photos of you know, there are some really supportive people out there and I just want to shout out to all the people who gave me an opportunity when you know it wasn't easy, I'm sure it's not easy decision to part with even a dollar. You know money is money. Yeah, I am so grateful for for people that gave me opportunity to even assist them.
Speaker 1:Or, you know, even test shoot as a newbie I think that's another thing test shoots has yes, okay, before we, before we move on, I just want to ask you one more question about these websites. Um, do you, so you have a profile page? Yes, do you? And on your profile page did you say your situation, that you're currently studying makeup? Okay, and you just would complete, completely transparent, it will change, obviously, according to, like my situation.
Speaker 2:So when I was studying, it would say that I'm studying, you know, like you know, two months out, you know, first year out of study. Or you know, sometimes I wouldn't even need to mention it Like I have one photo, like it's not, it's hard to piece together. You know, or like, well, just have completed my, you know my diploma at blah blah and so, whatever it was at the time, but it wasn't like you know, I would say experienced makeup artist. No, I'm not experienced.
Speaker 2:There is no experience mentioned yeah, so I think that's really important in expecting, uh, managing expectations, because I think when you, when you give a little to the client, I think the client really reciprocate that back to you. So when you are sort of helping them in other ways, even when you're like, okay, look, I can't give you the best makeup that you can probably have, but I can help you, like get dressed or, you know, I can help you pick some jewelry you know I'm fashion background like I can help you, like I will approach it that way and also like give them chats and you know and a lot of them have actually stuck around like there are still clients from back those days that recommended me and I've got clients that are, you know, through those questions from those days yeah, my prices go up and some of them came along with me and not all of them will, but and that's so the fun part of it as well it's like you're just growing with them.
Speaker 2:You know they their whatever birthday and then, oh, I'm getting engaged. They engage a lot, you know. It's just like a process, like you're growing with them in a sense.
Speaker 1:So yeah, yeah, did you get any weddings off those sites? Uh, yes.
Speaker 2:I, so I did every. Whenever I think of these things, it makes me like so uncomfortable. But yeah, because really I don't know. I just feel like my work wasn't obviously it wasn't very good. It wasn't very good, my work wasn't very good. Back then you know thinking back, but at the same time that's what it was. I don't think you should be embarrassed. There isn't there isn't an embarrassment, but I think it's good to be embarrassed about it, because if you're not embarrassed about your work, so many years ago, like what are you doing.
Speaker 2:You know what I mean.
Speaker 1:I think there should be some like okay, why I have become better since then, yeah, yeah, no, I know, I mean I'm thinking back to something and I'm like well, yeah, I'm thinking back to a really black, I'm going to send it to you after this, this really black makeup I did. Yeah, we can compare. Anyway, yeah, and I'm thinking back to that and I did this. This was in a photo shoot shoot and I wondered I was like why, why can't I get any fashion clients, like why can't I get any photo shoots? And I'm gonna show you this and you'll be like oh yeah, that's why.
Speaker 2:Because when you see that hair as well. Love it. Anyway, it's good.
Speaker 1:I think it's good to reflect yeah, for sure, for sure, sorry, oh, weddings, tell me, tell me about I had again.
Speaker 2:Bless, these are lovely, lovely clients like I've always had not would, but I've always had lovely clients and they're still so lovely now. And it was a yeah, a lady who was getting married and the bridesmaids were her step children, my stepdaughter, like full, okay, 18, oh that's sweet. And I did her makeup, I did a trial and she has quite deep set eyes and so she wanted like shimmery, light color. You know, makes perfect sense now, now, yeah, thinking back. But she did also want like frosty lips.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so which was?
Speaker 2:like threw me a little bit. Now with experience I don't, like I don't really care Because, like, whatever you want is what you want, it's your flavor, your taste. Yeah, and I have more work that I don't get many, you know, like I don't get a diversion of that look a lot. So now I have a little bit more, I guess, work to represent my style and photos to show Back. Then not so much I didn't have, you know, I had like, yeah, photos and zero bridal makeup examples and she wanted that and I think I just didn't listen, I just did what I wanted. And you know, even even now I'm sure I suffer from that a little bit. You know, I'm human, I can't help that and I've gotten much better. But then I just gave her whatever I wanted, really basically giving back.
Speaker 2:So the trial was not great, like I didn't. I don't think she liked it that much, but again, bless her, she still surged on with the wedding and, bless her, she still surged on with the wedding and she gave me feedback and I was very upset. Like I was so upset about it I think because I was older and because I had to go back to the beginning after being the beginning being like 13 years old. You know the beginning after being the beginning being like. You know like I didn't have the experience to um get back up. You know like the resilience because as you get a bit more experience, I think you get stuck in your ways and you basically it's very rare that you'll get told that you're wrong because you're not doing the execution of the work as such. You're like doing more of the planning, the bigger picture stuff.
Speaker 2:Back when I was doing corporate, let's say when I was in the industry, and I think I really really struggled to get out of that mindset of, okay, she didn't like my work. Now, like my career's over, you know like how, how could this be happening to me? Like last time I got pulled off was 10 years ago about doing something wrong, like as wrong as this, and I have become much. I feel like I have become much more resilient and understand people much better and read people a little bit better than I did when I was back then.
Speaker 2:What I did was, you know, yell at suppliers and yell at my team and you know it was very that kind of vibe. You know People who are in that kind of environment I think will understand what I mean when I say y'all, you have to make sure the result is there. So the results are more important than the people in a sense. So if that is something that happens in a lot of like environment, I'm sure it's changed a lot, but back in, you know, simpler times, back in 2000s it wasn't like that. You know, like people, you know I've done work experience for fashion designers not many names literally throwing phones at people, like I'm talking not on a mobile phone, I'm talking like off landlines.
Speaker 1:Oh gosh.
Speaker 2:And throw it like the interns oh my gosh, like that toxic environment, like I've been through all that. You know that was the peak fashion, like Naomi Campbell. You know that kind of vibe, yeah, that, yeah, everything's changed now. I feel it's definitely not like that now, but that you're changing. There's no more.
Speaker 2:So I think, coming out of that, I had to learn to really like get my ego at bay, like I think I had to really work on that side of things. So I went to this very fearful wedding day and I had to really ask the questions and go okay, so what is it that you didn't like about it? That is such a difficult question, not only to be told that you did a shit job excuse my French again but to go why is that shit? And come to some sort of understanding of no longer making that bad, you know. And I think that I really struggled with and that day I had to learn it the hard way and we came to a, we came to an agreement and she ended up wanting it like she ended up loving the makeup.
Speaker 2:So, you know, and her bridesmaids, they ended up recommending me to people and you know, it's just, it all worked out really well. Yeah, that was my first bridal experience and from there I think my confidence was like okay, so I can do this. I just need to make sure that, a I listen and two just get more experience. You know, I just need to paint more faces.
Speaker 1:So, yeah, that was my. I mean, it isn't nice when someone doesn't like your makeup. I think I mean also, in that situation she could have just not. Yeah, exactly, but she gave you feedback, which I think I love that amazing.
Speaker 2:I'm so grateful, like I'm really grateful. I think people saw that I was trying and I think people do have a lot of time for people who are trying and now, because obviously my pricing is completely different to what it was then and I think now it's a different kind of thing altogether of different challenges that I have than I did back then, which I am also hopefully, in seven years' time, look back and be like okay, I overcame that. You know, there are different sets of things that I'm like really struggling with now and I think that's just the never-ending thing. As you know, anyone doesn't even have to be about makeup, but I think everyone has to have this thing.
Speaker 2:All the time of you think, oh, if I just do that one thing, if I can like master this one thing like eyeliner, if I can master eyeliner, I'll just be like the best makeup artist in the world. And then you do that and then you go, oh crap, like actually I need to work on skin. And then you go, oh, yeah, mastered the skin. And then you go, oh crap, like actually I need to work on skin. And then you go, yeah, mastered the skin. And then you meet all these different people with different skin. And then you're like, okay, well, I need to learn different skins. And then you think it's just that one thing. But that's never just that one thing, it's just, there's another waiting for you just waiting for you around the corner.
Speaker 2:It's like hi. So I think that is something that comes with age, right, the wisdom. Although I wish I had started makeup artistry or having my own business earlier, I don't think me as a person would have been able to tackle the people aspect of this, so I think I would have absolutely done this business to the ground because my ego I was I was always really fiery, really blunt, just not very good with people, like I just wasn't very good with people, but I'm much better with people, I think now.
Speaker 1:I find that so hard to see because I only know Nicole.
Speaker 2:Oh my god if anyone, for whatever reason, is listening to this, who is not a makeup artist and used to work with me or for me. I'm really sorry, like I was just not. Like. I remember one of my assistants she one of the best assistants I've ever had Amazing, shout out. She actually works in the fashion industry and she still and she's probably like had a buy now, but she broke her arm and don't judge me, this was me very stressed out and young. I was like you know, I told her she can still come because she still has the other arm. I was like but you're still okay, right, like you can come tomorrow though. Right, because she broke it.
Speaker 1:She was 21.
Speaker 2:That was me. That was me in the fashion industry Like brutal, like ruthless. I was like work comes first. I never took a single I think I took. For whatever, 13 years I worked, I probably took two sick days off it definitely was a different time.
Speaker 1:I mean, I think, because we're a similar age. Um, you know, I've really seen a shift, even in the way I feel about work. I mean, I was a hairdresser first and one of my bosses told me, when I rang them up to say I can't come in, I'm sick I reckon I was about 19 at this point and she said I hope you die. Oh, so typical, isn't it? So, yeah, I hope you die, yeah, and I just felt terrible, you know. So, yeah, I'm glad things have changed and you know, we're all. We're all changing, just maybe becoming a bit more empathetic, yeah, I think also, like everyone's, realizing work isn't everything.
Speaker 1:I think COVID had a big part to play for that. Actually, in a way, especially with, you know, brides if they couldn't get the artist they wanted, you know, in the end I suppose they'd just be happy to have an artist. So I feel like, you know, COVID did some good things.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean, look, I think ultimately things are becoming more apparent of like mental health and that it's not okay, like it's actually not okay for you to push the other person just because that's your standards. You know, like what you think is right, it may be for you, but you can't push those. I guess unrealistic, you know, like telling someone that they're sick.
Speaker 1:Yeah, for sure.
Speaker 2:Or that you come in even if you have a broken arm, like that is not normal behavior, like, I think, expecting that to then have the other person do the same, like that is where it's like, so completely, um, if I have a broken arm, if I want to come in, that's up to me.
Speaker 2:I can't expect the other person to the state like that is. That, I think, is where I'm now, as, with time, with age, with different change in the society, I think that's something that I have become much better with dealing with people and I think anyone who might want to, you know, consider a career change, you know, in a later year, like something that I think helped me was my age, like the reason why I could move so quickly through I think it would have taken me a lot longer to establish and have the jobs that I have and grow my business, that you know how I grew it not saying that it's big, small or anything but I think it wouldn't have happened if I was younger because, yeah, I would have given up, I think, a lot earlier yeah, yeah, a lot more quick to be like you can't treat me like that.
Speaker 2:How dare you say, do you know who I am? Don't you know that I have assistance or like advice? You know like that attitude and I think that is okay. But again, I am glad that I am a little bit embarrassed about it now, like not even a little bit a lot bit embarrassed about it now, like not even a little bit a lot bit embarrassed about it, because it means that I have become something a little bit, hopefully, different and that I learned that that is that's not me now. You know like I went through it when I was young. I had a lot of fire, a lot of passion, a lot of time, energy. Now it's not like that and I think it's really helped me to deal with people a lot better. And I think as a makeup artist, the number one skill is makeup. I'm sure I can start a dozen, but I think how you deal with people, I think is probably one of the most important things I have found.
Speaker 1:I think, in all aspects of being a makeup artist whether you're an events bridal makeup artist, whether you're on set, whether you're working with celebrities, whether you're working with actors yeah, um, it's yeah yeah, definitely, age has like rounded me out a little bit more and I think it has enabled me to sort of interact with different kind of all sorts of different people and um.
Speaker 2:So yeah, don't think that just because you're a bit older that you can't I don't know do this full-time or make the jump. I think it might. It's an advantage. I think I agree you don't tend to overthink things either. You go oh, why do you use this? Like, oh no, I don't have time, you know.
Speaker 1:So yeah, yeah let's talk about when you did your course. Did they encourage you to do test shoots or work experience or anything like that?
Speaker 2:I don't think they were that specific about. Okay, I don't think they were very industry specific, but I think.
Speaker 2:I feel like I've taken a lot out of the course I you know, because they did do a lot of like work experience and connect you with some people, but the specifics of the first step out, because you know, you need to know the first link to the next step. I think telling you about the fifth step and the sixth step doesn't really mean much and I feel like that was the piece that was quite crucial, that was missing out of my particular makeup school. So what do you do the first and how do you get the first job? Like, how do you get that? That is the piece that I wanted to know.
Speaker 1:How did you know to do the one flare or the air tasker? Did someone recommend?
Speaker 2:I, I googled. Okay, I remember I googled how do I book a job as a makeup artist? And then, like all these things came up. And then flare must have been doing a lot of page advertising. It just kept coming up on my thing, so I just clicked it. I just clicked it and then I was like, oh okay, yeah, okay, sure, I'll sign on. And then Airtasker how did I learn about Airtasker? It must have just come up on the Google search as well, I think. Basically, I just took the others into my own hands and I was like you know what I'm going to have to find out how I get the job.
Speaker 1:And when you went into the course to become a makeup artist, what was your end goal? Did you want to do bride or did you want to do photo shoots, like was there a direction you wanted to go in from the very beginning?
Speaker 2:Yes, so I actually wanted to go in from the very beginning. Yes, so I actually wanted to be in film. So I thought I wanted to be. I thought I wanted to be in like special effects and you know yeah, I thought I would be doing special effects and maybe like some high-end fashion, like editorial, you know, like I thought that's what I wanted yeah, so did, so did you.
Speaker 1:Yeah, sorry.
Speaker 2:And then I was like all right, I'm not a problem maker, what are you doing? Like I come from a fashion you know I'm unfashionable. Like I don't no, I'm not doing that. And then I did the special effects and it was fun, but I was like no, this ain't me.
Speaker 2:And then I did some work experience on like I'm sad and even just working, doing um anything with speaking, like recording sound, I just realized it wasn't for me because I am really fidgety. I love to talk, I can't sit, still hate waiting around. Really continue like continuity, not my strength, continue.
Speaker 2:Well, I was like that's not for me either, because all I wanted to do was like chat to the person next to me and get to find out, and then like go be in this business. And then like be in everybody's business and go here and go to the bathroom freely, and then you, you know, like the pace just wasn't for me.
Speaker 2:So it's, funny because then I was like, okay, I don't really want to do that. And then I started doing the Airtasker jobs and I was like, oh, I really enjoy just doing the thing you know, just doing the very like, I guess, everyday stuff. Yeah, just the makeup, you know just fun eyeliner, or like just not even fun eyeliner. Just the reaction of people when they're like oh wow, I love it.
Speaker 2:And then we're like yay, I'm going to have a great time and you can see the confidence change when you do the before makeup. They all like all put it out and then final reveal and you're taking photos and you see them like pose and then they take selfies or then they like start to look at this mirror, run to that mirror, go to the bathroom mirror, look at that mirror and then you go, okay, maybe that is what I'm doing and then, yeah, so that was sort of a shift. Throughout the course and then outside of as well. I wasn't really saying no to anything, I was taking everything. But now obviously I am much more um specific on what it is that I want to pursue and and bridal is. I'm just gonna say it's like the money's to me and stable and I genuinely love. I didn't even cry at my own wedding, but I cry at every one, like nearly have a little tear up every time now, like when I oh, you're so cute, genuinely love it.
Speaker 2:Like I love that. It's just the happiest day, it's good vibes, um, people, it's just you're just part of that. Such a special moment that is so exclusive. You know you have to be asked to be in that group and then you're like part of it and I get to sort of help them out, get dressed and do whatever else you know, give them advice if they need it, calm them down, and I feel like we have so much power that day in how the day kind of ends up being. And I think you know I love that. That. It's such a sure yeah. So I actually love doing weddings now, money aside, so yeah yeah, I love a wedding.
Speaker 1:I think it's a nice. Yeah, mine's just all about the people really Like, yeah, if it's good people, it's a good time, and when I say good people, I just really mean nice people, totally People that respect your time and your work. So, yeah, how did you get the work experience on the film? Like, was that through your course?
Speaker 2:So they always do. They have people obviously inquiring if you know anyone needs hair and makeup, they'll get all the jobs come through and you basically put your hand up for if you want to participate or if you're free, I put my hand up on everything. I just said yes to everything. Again, advantage of not having another job is that you're always available, and I think that was probably the critical part at the beginning is that I was available for everything, and just being available is like such a superpower that led me so.
Speaker 2:I always like to do like linking games of how did I end up with this job now, one of the jobs that I have now still is from back in work experience either another artist I met then or like a photographer that I've met then, or a model, or through the connection, so like I've got this one photographer that I've met then, or a model, or through the connections, so like I've got this one photographer that I did a, so I did work experience at a fashion show and the person who was the art director, who was a student there, she's a photographer. She asked if I wanted to do a test shoot. Through that I met, shout out, kim Kim Phan, a friend of mine, and through her I have met so many different people that I still work with and brands. So the ones that she couldn't do, she would refer me. I refer her sometimes as well. And we met on the job. I was doing hair, hair, she was doing the makeup. So when I said job, that was six years ago and is kim now?
Speaker 1:in new york. Yeah, okay, so she's the right person. Yeah, okay, incredible like incredible person.
Speaker 2:Terrible driver, but she is. She drives like she's on the set of Fast and the Furious. I thought you drove down to Jervis Bay for a wedding. I was helping her for a wedding and I thought I was going to die. Oh my gosh, amazing person.
Speaker 1:Yeah, just don't make her drive don't get the car, maybe perhaps you offer to drive if you're listening kim hi but yeah, so you met her, hold on, hold on, so you did a test shoot, you met her and then a lot of things happened because of meeting her and there are so many other ones where it happened that way, like I'll meet with a work experience and meet someone, or I did a test shoot and then meet someone.
Speaker 2:So, like I just said yes to a lot of those sort of jobs. Some of them nothing came out of and it was completely a waste of time. But yeah, you just don't know, you just don't know. Also, the ones that I always get the job, it's always the ones like I don't think they like me very much. Always I'm like no, I don't think I'll ever see them again. And then like two years later, oh do you remember this person?
Speaker 2:Oh yeah, she loved working with you and she referred you blah, blah, blah. What? Really? Yeah, yeah, but she hates me. You just don't want, you're really. And then, because people react to things so differently, like often marrying my husband, I realized that there's introverts and extroverts and people deal with situations so differently. Like to him, he's so outwardly and he's so excited, but from my perspective he's yay, but he loved it or something. You know, like everyone reacts to things so differently and now I'm learning to sort of not really take too much notice of that aspect. You know, you can never react to people's minds. It's not possible.
Speaker 1:The internal dialogue you get, you give yourself from someone else's response.
Speaker 2:I do that. There's a whole like series in my brain right now, you know, and I'm not an overthinker normally, but when it comes to no, You're not. I'm quite simple, but dealing with so many different people, I have become much more complexicate. Like, complex in, like, oh, not complex, but I like to complicate things a little bit more because people are so different well, I think our job does have so much to do with if someone likes you.
Speaker 1:yes, in a way, everything you know, so honestly, you know. So, yeah, it is, it's a lot, it is a big part of it. Did you assist artists?
Speaker 2:I do. I have assisted artists, but not very much. I think that path I didn't take a lot. I probably went down more the testing path than assisting. I very rarely assisted actually, which is unusual, quite unusual, especially because I wanted to get into fashion and I think it's quite difficult to get into if you don't assist. I think, but yeah, like I do still do fashion. So yeah, but yeah, very rare that I assist.
Speaker 1:I know a lot of people ask how do you get commercial work? And what would you say, the number one way or actually just what are the ways that you've found, that you've gotten commercial work?
Speaker 2:There are a few different ways. I think, like you'll never know how you actually got the job, like it's very rare that you know how a job came about, but I assume A another artist will recommend you. So that's it, and you may like to recommend artists to other people as well. So if I can't do the job, I have a list that I tend to give out. Or if I look at the brand or the job or the wedding or whatever, and if it's sort of the the vibe of that person, I'd like to recommend the vice versa, same as as artists, you know, like you and Kim always recommending your work and that is so incredible. So I think networking and sort of okay. So what's the first way? Test shoots, I think is the way you will meet other people, and also just reaching out on Instagram.
Speaker 2:I have reached out on Instagram. It's like I love your work and start following them, start liking their work, and I think you can either ask, you know, like, can we catch up for coffee? Or something like that. I think it's quite nice when you get to talk about the industry with someone else, because it's such a lonely occupation otherwise Mainly working on my own, you know and people change all the time, like different photographers, different brands, different clients. So I have had made friends through Instagram, stalking good old. So I have worked on a few people to try to like crack into sort of their network Just not for any other reason, because I feel like network and that's probably the main reason and then it just organically kind of happens that they do their work or you end up referring each other work or helping each other out, something like that.
Speaker 1:When you say your meet up up for coffee, are you talking about other makeup artists or, like photographers, stylists or both?
Speaker 2:yeah, so I, so I have a, like I've obviously caught up with you for coffee, for, um, yeah, you that I do like to dig, you know, decompress a little bit of like the stress of the work.
Speaker 2:You want to know what is happening with other people, whether you're imagining everything on your own, like you go okay, am I the only person who is a you know ABC inside any situation that is happening? And generally it's not and then, like right, it happens to me too. It's good mentally, I think, to have a little comfort each other comfort each other of situations that may be tough. Or you know product recommendations or anything like that. You know quiet at the moment, like you know what's your. I've had friends who have told me your price is too low, you need to get that, and then so thankful for them because they're like you're a undercutting bird industry to if I'm cutting yourself and you will attract certain clients when we get to a certain level in pricing, so you need to match Absolutely yeah. So yeah, I do catch up, mainly with other makeup artists, so I think that's where a lot of the work, commercial work do come from and weddings, even weddings, when I get through those networks or friends.
Speaker 2:Another one that I do is makeup plays, so I do makeup play, so reach out to okay attractive girls on instagram I sound like an absolute creep right now.
Speaker 2:no, no, no, no. Either ones you've worked with before, like models you've worked with before, or friends of friends, or you know girls you've done formal makeup for or something like that. So they record them and basically do reels or do makeup plays and make those photos content. But the reason I think people like it is because they're not professional photos. I think people yeah, okay, think people, especially clients actually I have had them give me my work back as references, not professional photos or things like that. So I think that's quite important because I think they see your work more. Because I don't like to over-edit my photos. I only adjust the light level, yeah. Or if someone has like a massive picture, then yeah, for sure. I don't like to over edit my photos. I only adjust the light level, yeah. Or if someone has like a massive, then yeah, for sure.
Speaker 2:Because it is distracting and normally it shouldn't really belong there. But if they have textured skin like yeah, I'll keep that, you know. But I I think they can see the work a bit more raw and they see the process of me actually putting the makeup on more raw and they see the process of me actually putting the makeup on and I think that has helped helped me to secure some commercial work.
Speaker 1:So okay, that's that's. That's a great um point. Do you use hashtags or anything?
Speaker 2:in your makeup brands, and I don't really use a lot of hashtags, I just tag them.
Speaker 1:Do you use like hashtag Melvin? Sorry, melvin.
Speaker 2:Sydney makeup artist. Yes, I do Sydney makeup artist, natural makeup artist Sydney and.
Speaker 2:I know that a lot of my work actually comes from that particular hashtag the natural one, okay, the natural one, okay. Um. And I do also know that the brands look at your. You know how on instagram, there's three tabs on the top and there's the ones where you've been tagged. So, instead of the one you post, yeah, yes, where you've been tagged, yeah, there is the one in the middle is the real. And then there's one where other people tag you, yeah, I think a lot of people do go into that and then see, yeah, who has been tagged, like, if there's a model, they'll go and see who the makeup artist was. So the test shoots that helps as well. When everyone tags each other, I think that does actually generate a bit of the work as well.
Speaker 1:So when, when you do I call them content creation, makeup play. When you do those um sessions, shall I say you, is it normally like a couple of hours and do you have a end goal in mind of what you want to create?
Speaker 2:so so I do have a Pinterest board generally what Create, what look I want to create, depending on the model. So, if a model, if I want to do a particular look, then I either choose a model that looks like that if I have the luxury, or if I have a model that I try to look for looks that work well with that model that still aligns with the look that I want to continue to do. If I want to try a new product or a look that I really like, so, for example, like really blushy look, like I've been wanting to do it and obviously on a commercial job it's very rare that you get to do it and I wanted to try all these like brushes and really exaggerate the features and that kind of thing. Um, I will, I will have something in mind like that and then do the makeup play. Um.
Speaker 2:But there is a girl, a model now, who I met on that test ship that I was talking about six years ago. Through the work experience met her. Her thought she was gorgeous. Again, another shout-out Emily Kaufman. She features very heavily on my Instagram, so she was a student. She's now signed with Wink, but I just get her in basically once every I don't know three months. Sometimes there's a big gap, but I'll get her in, I'll do the look and we'd work together like that and it's quite a symbiotic relationship I think if you can get someone who's kind of interested in going into a modeling industry kind of team up, and it doesn't actually matter if it's the same face that keeps appearing and it really helps um people to see if you think it helped okay yeah, um, do you ever?
Speaker 1:are you? Is it just a um contra kind of deal? Or do you ever? Have you ever paid models? Or is it just a like you scratch my back, I'll scratch your back, kind of thing? Like how does it work? Because I feel some people find it hard to find the type of models maybe that they or the people they want to feature on their page.
Speaker 2:I don't pay them. I only pay them if I got paid. I have paid Emily before a very small amount, but when I had a product, that I'd been paid to promote one and only time.
Speaker 2:It's ever happened. So it's not that it happens any other time, but it was. So I did pay her for that one. But if it's not, I'm not getting paid. Yeah, and I am very upfront with them, not unpaid just to make a play. Yeah, you know, obviously I'll drop all the photos for you if you want them, and I have returned favors where, if they have something, if they've got a shirt on or something like that, I would do their makeup.
Speaker 2:So, I try to sort of, I guess, repay for their time, but it's a no, I don't pay them and they don't.
Speaker 1:Is it generally the people who you are doing the makeup on? Are they generally people you know, you have a relationship with, or do you get random sometimes?
Speaker 2:I've got. Yeah, most of them are actually randoms or people who know someone that I know or something like that. Okay, so some kind of a connection. There is some sort of connection. I have reached out to strangers before and I have done their makeup as well, so it kind of depends on how open they are. Okay to it, yeah, um, but yeah it's. I don't think it's like set in stone. I think it's person by person. So you have to kind of suss out what they're over into and whether you're kind of being there as well.
Speaker 1:Yeah, no, I agree, I think if you're, I think if you're reaching out and asking, um, asking people who are professional models, then there is maybe a they may want to be paid, which is fine, you know, if you're reaching out to, but if you know them, then it might just as like a favour thing. But then if it's just you know, just someone you know or someone you've seen, I think, yeah, you've just got to be if you really want someone then you may have to pay Exactly.
Speaker 2:You know what I mean. Like I've been lucky with Emily. Yeah, I got in at a good time before she's been signed. Yeah, so like I got her, I swear I would love to be an agency like scout, because it's so fun to be able to like look at a face and be like I really want to paint your face. But then there's been a few where they've now been signed. It's like okay, now what happens? What happens now? But I think makeup is fine because no one's really going to paint.
Speaker 1:So I think as long as you're open and upfront.
Speaker 2:I think that's the main thing. Everything that I've learned is as long as you're upfront and clear, there generally is enough of it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and how long do your makeup plays normally go for?
Speaker 2:So with the um, including the photography time, which takes obviously a long time about two hours, I would say two a little bit over two hours. Sometimes less than two hours depends on if I'm doing the hair as well and with the chatting. You know friends, yeah, yeah, round two. So I block out, like the morning slot.
Speaker 1:So 9, 30 to whatever 11 or something like that, that's how long yeah and do you have a system of your own that you follow when you're doing doing this, or do you just kind of make it up as I?
Speaker 2:go, I'm. I'm not as rigid as I like I would hope that I am. I think I am quite on the fly for some things. That's why I like makeup right, because I can just let things happen and experiment and some plays, which I think is a little bit unfair, I guess, on the person who turned up. I've never posted.
Speaker 1:Yeah, okay, because you won't happen with your work.
Speaker 2:I'm not happy with the work. I'm not happy with the lighting. I'm not happy with the lighting.
Speaker 2:I'm not happy with that angle of the camera yes, they're recording and if it's not a good angle then there's no point. And, um, maybe sometimes just the photo that you post, then not the video, so but you end up with like 200 photos. You know, at the end and that is the time that we don't have on a paid shoot or someone's wedding you know you don't have the luxury of being able to get that one nice shot like. I think what people don't understand is when someone posts something on Instagram, it's not that they just did one photo lucky them if they did but it's not that one photo and yeah, or happy, and everything's not that very well considered. There's about another 400 photos that go before that. That is exactly the same. So, yeah, that is the luxury you get with makeup place and you get that one photo that may book you a wedding, which has happened multiple times, where it's like that was the image that wanted me to book you, or something like that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, because I think early in the day of Instagram, I know I fell into the trap of just thinking that I had to post, whereas not you know, you really need to think about what you're posting. Like you know, the makeup, the lighting, the background, the hair I think Ray Morris spoke about it actually on one of our past podcasts. Yeah, like when you post a photo, it says so much about your own taste levels. So, yeah, it's what you're saying you think is beautiful. Do you think your fashion background has ever have? Has it been any help in getting any work have you ever reached out to?
Speaker 2:people. I've never tapped into the fashion industry network, um, because I would hate it if someone did that to me, not for any other reason, because, okay, I don't contact them for eight years and then I contact them because I want their network. I don't think that's right. If it happens somehow that we get linked up through serendipity you know this like miraculously, like yeah, sure, but not like, go through linkedin and be like where you working, I'm gonna go through and I just it doesn't sit right and not the way I like to work. I like things a bit more organic and I like I like you more upfront.
Speaker 2:If I'm another makeup artist and I want to have coffee with you, it's obvious what the agenda is. But if I'm a makeup artist and I want to have coffee with you, it's obvious what the agenda is. But if I'm a makeup artist reaching out to a buyer that I used to work with, again what's the agenda? Like, why, what do you want? You know, and I don't really have to, I don't really have to, I don't want to do that Just for my personal, just personal belief, personal belief, yeah, yeah, yeah, I understand one thing that I'm I'm sure I would have, you know, booked a lot more bigger jobs through it. But at the same time I also don't want them to feel obliged, like what if they don't like my work? And then they're like, oh, but you know, we're like mates, so I don't want that kind of thing. I just want to okay, you like the work you book.
Speaker 2:If you don't like the work, that book you know, that's okay like I'm okay, um, because, like not to name drop, but I did go to uni with back in bridge, like they're my alumni, like I literally went to the same year, okay, so if I wanted to, I probably could reach out to them and same as um, p&h and Claire, like same here, so many amazing connections but I'm like, no, I want to make it my work. I want to make it a work. Okay, make it through makeup, not because I have fashion background and have them do it. That helps me in different ways, like having fashion background helps me on the job. Then they don't have a stylist, let's say job. Then they don't have a stylist. Let's say or they don't have someone if I'm there fixing their hair although, again, you want me to fix the color, something that would be when I was on shoot, like when I was a buyer and on shoots directing, being whatever creative director whatever, I was at the time you have to also do as a buyer would annoy me.
Speaker 2:I would pick it up and I would offer I'd be like, would you like me to fix that, and that comes in handy. Okay, saves them time because then they don't have to take their shoes off and come in and try to fix it. So I just, you know, try to help that way. Or, if you know, in a bridal situation, if someone needs something pinned, I'll pin it for them or fix something or cut something for them, that kind of thing, and that really does help the overall experience and time saving, and that's something I can bring. That's a bit different to maybe other people that don't bring that, I guess. Um, so that helps in that sense, not through I haven't asked you about hair.
Speaker 1:When did you and how did you learn hair?
Speaker 2:I never thought I would do hair. I hate doing. I used to hate doing hair. I hate doing my own hair. My hair's perpetually up in a pony and I've never, I've never been a hair person like I've never, just never was.
Speaker 2:And I started doing uni, at college, in diploma you do touch on it a little bit and I couldn't use a GHD straightener to curl hair. I just my brain just couldn't grasp that. Yeah, and eventually it clicked and I could do it. And then from that point I must, I must have just I don't know in like released this hair monster or something. But I just started loving doing hair. I was like hair, yeah, I'd love to do hair using and whatever and I think there was some bravery and ignorance. I thought I was so good at doing hair. Looking back, I'm like, oh, questionable. But I got this like confidence. As soon as I knew how to use a GHD to like curl hair, I was like, oh, genius, I must be so good at doing hair. And I got this like burst of confidence and I started just doing hair. And some are definitely not great, but it has enabled me to learn more, like I wanted to learn more about it.
Speaker 2:So through COVID. I enrolled in a hair course. Covid, I enrolled in a hair course and that really helped me to have more confidence in doing hair. So I do hair for brides as well. Obviously, expectations generally you do hair and makeup. But yeah, for bros like I, yeah, I enjoy doing hair and I intend to keep upscaling. So there is courses like one-on-ones that I want to take up as well. Yeah, and you know they're a lot of money, you know we're talking thousands, you know to do these courses, but it's so worth it because I think it's an extra edge that you can have because I do get hired a lot more, I think, because I do hair and makeup. So, yeah, for sure, yeah, for sure who?
Speaker 1:have you got any favorite makeup artists that you that inspire you?
Speaker 2:I have these are going to be very typical answers. I wish I had you know some creative ones. I could you know, say but Nikki Maker, so Nikki Wolf, just incredibly pleasing the way she does things, things it's like being uh, what's when you're musical and you can hear the tone perfectly like pitch, yeah, like yeah, okay, so you can do that for the face.
Speaker 2:Yeah, she just knows where that eyeliner needs to finish or like you know, like your eye just knows how satisfying something has to be and it's just so satisfying. You know, yeah, that she's very. She's got her own style. You can see when you open a page. It's okay, we can make up with that makeup.
Speaker 2:So that's probably one of them, obviously Pat McGrath, just because she symbolises so much in the makeup world and as being fashion background in the makeup world and as being fashion background, knowing what brands she's worked on, all the shows that I used to love, like john garland shows and I was a little prince and you know all those like amazing shows. She was part of that. You know that experience. So love her for that. Um, and I also love to neil jay australia mentioned there. Um, not because my style's necessarily like I don't think my style at all is similar to hers, like not in any way because she's very bronzy, very like that vibe. I'm very padded and very, very natural, you know yeah look, but I love that.
Speaker 2:She's that that really chic um cool girl. You know she knows how to make that person look like she was the cool girl at school, you know.
Speaker 2:And I love that she can encapsulate that look by doing something that may not typically look like it would be that, you know, like being super bronzed and like straight tan, like that kind of vibe, isn't something that you would say is a really cool girl vibe. It's the same vibe, but she makes it so cool somehow and she's the forefront of doing that look. So again, you tell that that's her work by when you're scrolling through, but you can definitely pick.
Speaker 1:To neil's work, I agree. Have you tried her bronzers? Because they, um the colors, look amazing.
Speaker 2:I'd want to buy them. But I'm like, okay, how many do I buy? Which ones I know I'm really late.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, I know, I think there's did you say there's eight Colours?
Speaker 2:I think there's eight or something.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I'm always really interested in light bronzes, just because I feel like if you can get a bronzer right for light skin, you're doing good and her colours look really nice.
Speaker 2:Sorry, On some lighter colours I just use like two shades darker.
Speaker 1:Yeah, actually I probably more of a contour, like a cooler tone, I find.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I do find contouring.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I feel like she's got one light one that could be, oh yeah, the cooler color one yeah, that's yeah yeah if you don't right, then so hard it does yeah absolutely yeah.
Speaker 2:And another thing, actually kit splits, I think is such oh yeah, someone mentioned it.
Speaker 1:Well, let's get some going, some bronzers.
Speaker 2:You can't, you're never able to finish a product before it expires. So it's like I don't. I don't need a whole thing, I just need variety. So it's like you want to go and keep kids, let's talk about this. But I think it's a really good way for people who are starting out. If you want to go about a kid, yeah for sure.
Speaker 1:Good way with lipsticks as well.
Speaker 2:Even blushes, yeah, blushes lipsticks anything, try something, just go in halfs with something.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I've done it a few times with some friends, but then it's who's doing the splitting? It was, it was always me doing this blurry more work kit favorites um a cute favorite.
Speaker 2:I am really loving the hourglass veil concealers. Hourglass veil concealers yeah, I just find that. So I was a ride or die tart shape tech girl, which is so weird because I do such like minimal makeup looks that you think that you know I would always mix it with foundation, so something that I always used to just love, but I actually really like the bell ones because they are much more.
Speaker 2:It mixes better, it's like not so strong. Um, yeah, she's a nice and it does blend a bit pretty now. So I am loving that kip favorite I I say this every time it's so boring, but Lash Color Like I just can't live without a Lash Color. Which one I use? The Shiseido ones, but Shu Uemura has always been my go-to. Okay, so I think they're maybe discontinuing. It's really hard for me to get the silicon rubber bits, so I've changed the Shiseido.
Speaker 2:I have used Kevyn Aucoin as well. It's fine. I personally prefer Shiseido, the Japanese lash curlers, the Asian lash curlers. They really know how to get that right.
Speaker 1:I just bought a new lash curler still to arrive, I think I don't know how to say it. There's ref. I don't know if it's refi or refi, not the one. Yeah, they've made the two different types, 18r and 20R. I saw you don't write. Have you got both?
Speaker 2:No, I don't have both of them but the one that has been around, I did buy it. It pinches, I think, the shape. Okay, it's too straight. Yeah, this one's more rounded. This one I found was really straight, like really not curved enough, so it was like straight well, the best one I've ever seen and I don't own is the chanel.
Speaker 1:No, I've never seen the flower yeah, I've seen, because I've actually assisted a lot of makeup artists coming to sydney and it's actually been amazing. And the the chanel one gives I don't know, you know how some lash curlers, I don't know this one kind of gives it like some some roundness yep, but I haven't got it yet so I can't. I bought the Dior backstage one actually, and I don't mind that one, but which did you?
Speaker 1:say she's like which one do you have? She's, yeah, I, that's another one that I've it. The mini ones, the little square ones. I love the mini ones.
Speaker 2:Because I mean, look, even until now I don't want to go like so straight into the roots. So I like the little ones for any places that I want to sort of go bigger, especially the edges. And on Asians yeah, asian eyes it's really tricky because their eye shape is, so it's generally a little bit longer and you can't quite get together. So it's nice to just have that. It's a little bit less intrusive, I think, on the eyes as well I think I'm gonna boss I with.
Speaker 1:When you're talking about the small one. There's two different small ones. Is it the one? That kind of looks quite.
Speaker 2:No, not the ones that are like that. Okay, so is it the one? It's literally like the ones that we have.
Speaker 1:A mini one. Yeah, that's what I want. Yeah, it's like the Mac one, I think, and it's cheap. Yeah, yeah, okay, I'm going to. Yeah, that's what I want. Yeah, it's like the MAC one, I think, and it's cheap. Yeah, yeah, okay, I'm going to get that one. Yeah, they're nice oh really Do you. Where do you get that one? You can buy them online. Yeah, oh, okay. I'm going to buy one online after this, just the big one to have, and also Tweezerman tweezers.
Speaker 2:okay, why?
Speaker 1:it's just oh, I think I know the ones that they are.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and down lashes they pinch best or name down lashes and the ergonomics of it, because it just has the softest little bounce. I've got that one. I tried doing it to his eyes nearly did me I was like.
Speaker 1:It's like when you have to use someone else's tweezers, you can't do it. I think it must be the tweezer man ones that I have it, just they work the best.
Speaker 2:So yeah, more like tools. Yeah, because I think makeup it just changes so much all the time like the product.
Speaker 1:My favorites are yeah cosmetic foundations I've been loving lately but as in the cc cream ones, oh I yeah, I just love it.
Speaker 2:Like I don't know why, all of a sudden I just love it. But it just has a nice finish, just does yep, which color?
Speaker 1:which color? One like which, like which color? Um, you know, there's a great. I used to use the green one on myself and I use, I like oh no, they're like foundation ones the season yeah, yeah, yeah. There it's like got the green sticker. Green sticker, what? Which one? I don't know.
Speaker 2:I think it was green, I don't know because you know how, like all that, they had all different cc. Oh no, this is the um, the classic one. So it numbers as in, like it has descriptions of like medium medium, olive, dark, medium. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I'm going to look it up. I have like seven different or six different colours now.
Speaker 1:Is it so? It's a foundation?
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's a foundation, but it's called Cicicline. It's like your skin, but that awesome.
Speaker 1:And it's just this one.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah. So it comes in a tube and it's.
Speaker 1:This is the one I was talking about, the green label.
Speaker 2:Oh, okay.
Speaker 1:That's what I meant, sorry, yeah, I think it's got sunscreen in it. All of them do which I don't love.
Speaker 2:I love that aspect of it because it does have a little bit of flesh back. Oh really, but I don't use a lot Like it's quite shit out, so I feel like it's not too bad. So I have been loving that Okay.
Speaker 1:And you've got seven shades of that one. Okay, what about blushes? Are you a?
Speaker 2:cream. I'm a powder blush. I don't know why. I've got cream, I've got liquid. The nude stick ones are great. I do like those. Yeah, I just find powders are so much quicker and I put, yeah, if I want a little bit of that chain finish, I put my glass ambient light powder on top, so I mix it the hourglass powder. I found that blush is my favorite, so I oh yeah, they are quite luminous anyway, aren't they?
Speaker 2:So I use that and then I do the luminous light powder thing together to make it like more creamy and shinny. So I do the powder personally.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And have you got like a favorite lip combo? Yes, it's discontinued. Yeah, the backer, I can't remember what they're called, but they're perfect bridal shades, so I mix the two colors together. One of them I want to say it's tulip, but I don't think it is because I think tulip's the one that I don't use as often but it's like one's like a cooler rosy pink and yellow.
Speaker 2:it's more of a neutral nude pink and when I mix it together it just creates vibrant version of pillow talk. You know how pillow talk can look a little bit dull, yeah, it's a bit moody, too moody and a little bit dark. Yeah, it's like a bridal-y version of that, and it's got a nice chin, yeah. So I'm like down to the last bit. I've been searching for a dupe for so long, yet to find it.
Speaker 1:So when I'm done with this, i't know I'm done. I just bought a really nice lipstick. I was influenced by someone on instagram. It's the um and they're freaking expensive. I didn't realize it's a laura mercier one. It's. It's a um lip smoothing lipstick. It is matte but it feels lovely on the lips. They are 80 each. I bought one. I can tell you the color if you are interested, but I can't think of it off the top of the of my head, but it really is.
Speaker 1:I'm actually really into um updating my lip and my cheek collection at the moment, because I just feel like I'm just doing the same thing. So I bought a lot of lip products, mainly glosses. There's a lot of like really nice, juicy, colored, like see-through kind of lip products out at the moment. Have you tried Tower 28? No, is it good? Yeah, I, it's really good price point. Their mascara is pretty good um, it's the wands amazing. Yeah, um, and it's not tubing, but it's not transferring. We're only using it on the top lash, but it's it's really good. I bought one of their blushes and it was a cream blush, so it might not be for you. It was really nice. And I bought their lip like lip balms maybe, but they're colored. That's like what I need actually for shoots yeah.
Speaker 1:Yes, for shoots, we could cancel it.
Speaker 2:I know Lips I find really hard. Actually, actually, one thing that I find the hardest out of any makeup like especially bridal is finding the right lip color for the client.
Speaker 1:I find that actually the trickiest, I don't know why I find I find for lips I tend to generally do a lip liner and what are they called? Leno, yeah, yeah, color I find that works. I use. I find that I use a lot of um, wherever walnut and anywhere, caffeine. I make up forever, but I feel like I'm just the same, so that's why I'm trying to asian bridal clients.
Speaker 2:Okay, I find really difficult to get them okay also because I think we're limited on sort of the the vibe that is popular with that culture, like there are. I think there is definitely you. You know we can't argue that there is a cultural difference in like, especially even within Asian cultures. Like Chinese makeup generally is different to Korean makeup. Japanese makeup is different, you know. It's like Vietnamese makeup, you know, is a little bit different than Japanese makeup.
Speaker 2:Japanese makeup is really padded. You know like there are flavors of that trend that's happening in that culture. It's different but you can't deny you know just the same that latte look is in within the Australian culture, let's say. You know it's like a thing that flatters that particular culture and their aesthetics.
Speaker 2:I'm finding it really difficult to cater for so many different people and I'm having to, I guess, find lips that are that trend and then yeah, and then for shoots, and then this shoot, and then it's like that is my challenge at the moment is the diversifying and I love it. Like I actually love that I have a lot more Asian bridal clients, because I never kind of did before. I had very non-diverse, lots of blonde, you know, brides, yeah, okay, I think the neighborhood that I live in, you know, but I love that. That's my new challenge. So like I have to cater for that. They're very big. So like I bought about six different big products that I need to add to my kit, knowing that I'll never use them for shoots, like never, I'll carry it around with me for shoots just in case, but I'll never use those.
Speaker 2:I know that. You know they're like brick, yeah. Yeah, some Asian clients are really big on this, like brick color lips, and I'm like brick. I don't even know what you mean. And then I googled, looked it up, looked at all these bestsellers what are your, you know? And now I have, I have them, so hopefully I can cater for people asking for those. So, but, yeah, yeah, but yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:What advice would you give to somebody starting out as a makeup artist? I know we've talked about so much and you've given so much advice, but what would be sort of your top one or two or three pieces of advice for?
Speaker 2:someone starting out, Okay. So I think if someone can talk you out of it, then maybe it's not for you.
Speaker 1:Okay, yeah.
Speaker 2:I don't think you can just do it as a side and make a career, unless you're exceptional unless you're thinking of Pat McGrath, then maybe If you're looking at sort of the average, I think you need to be available and ready if you want to do the things you want to do, or it may take you a lot longer than you anticipated.
Speaker 2:I think being available and ready is a big one, so I think, if you're kind of like umming and ahhing and then you're like, oh no, I've got a full-time job and that, no, I'm not available, and then you get forgotten, even if you're brilliant like I've had people who have either helped me or worked with me on jobs and I'm like, oh my God, that person is so amazing and I try to reach out and they're never available, and then I now forgot who they are, because it's been years now.
Speaker 2:You know, and I'm sure I'm the same. Sometimes if I'm not available for whatever reason, I've become forgotten as well, like I'm no longer available. But there have been jobs where I wanted to do it so badly they asked me back and I'm not available. I won't be asked back again most times. Like that is just how it is. You know it's grateful if they come back to you after you know you're not available.
Speaker 2:To go to another artist Amazing, but you know it's rare. Available to go to other artists amazing, but you know it's rare. I think that happens. So I think you're going to be sort of like oh, I don't know. I don't know. If someone's like no, you know you're not going to be making a lot of money for the first, whatever years, and if they're like, oh, and maybe not, then maybe it's not for you.
Speaker 2:Maybe I think you do need to be quite into it, leave and breathe it almost. I think you're not really on the pulse of what's happening in the industry, like what's happening with the hair, especially now everyone's upskilling so hard we don't know how to do that pamela anderson up style like that twisting then you're probably not really going to get hired for those jobs if you want those jobs. You know, maybe that's yeah, even just as an older person. I think that's something you know. If you, if you're just going to be like whatever about it and find something that you're not whatever about, find something that you're like I'd love to do, even if you fell at it, you know, even if you're not, if you want to Find something that you love to do, even if you fail at it, you know, even if you're not, if you want to change, then that's fine too, but I think you've just got to be really into it. Yeah, and another advice is probably something that I wish someone told me when I was starting out is be nice to everyone who you meet. Okay, sure, all bets are are off. If they're rude to you, then fine, do whatever you will. You know over and I. But yeah, generally be nice to everyone on set, everyone on a bridal job, formal, whatever, because honestly, they will mean a lot for you and for them. And also, you just don't know who's watching and who is going to be the next person who is willing to hire you. So I think, if you're, you know, I've been told on a job, I did a job where it was an outdoor shoot.
Speaker 2:I had a spray sunscreen and it was brutally hot. I was going around to everyone like you know, crew, clients, models, everyone. I was like, oh, would you like some sunscreen? Like their necks are red Went around, sunscreened, everybody sunscreened myself and then the client actually told me on the next job that I got booked again and she was like, we love that you took care of everyone. We wanted to work with you again because I know you will be. Yeah, you are a nice person.
Speaker 2:It's like, yeah, not that that's why you're doing it, but I think it's just something that does actually come back. It does come back to you, right, um, yep, and I wish I knew that at the beginning of my career, because I don't think I was like that I was. I was still the fashion egotistical person then and now you know I have regrets on sort of not snapping out of it earlier, but you know that I think it's one important thing that I try to listen to myself and other things. Just have fun, you know, and just be yourself and don't try to be something different or try to do something that you don't think is your aesthetic. Do that, of course, for a job, but don't post them if you don't want to do it again. Don't keep posting those jobs. That's things that you don't want to get booked for. They don't need to be posted like that smoky eye.
Speaker 1:Yeah, doesn't need to be posted on this no, no, no, for sure, nicole, thank you so much. We've been talking for an hour and 40 minutes and um, I could, we could keep talking for longer, but um time, yeah, thank you very much for having me. Thanks for joining me today on the Makeup Insider. I hope you've enjoyed the show. Please don't forget to rate and subscribe, and I'll see you soon. Bye for now.