The Makeup Insider
The Makeup Insider is a fortnightly one-on-one podcast exploring the life and career of makeup artists, hosted by freelance mua Vanessa Barney.. Finding your community of other likeminded mua’s – the creative, artistic, talkative, flexible, adaptable with a good eye for colour kind-of-people, can often be daunting. Like, where do you start? The Makeup Insider is designed for just that. To build a collaborative online community of artists to build their confidence, connections and help drive their career to the next level.If you’re just starting out or have been in the industry for a long time, tune in now, check out the key takeaways in the show notes and subscribe so you never miss an episode. Find Vanessa @vanessabarney @the.makeupinsider
The Makeup Insider
Unlocking the Secrets to a Successful Test Shoots with Ashleigh Carpenter
Keeping Your Makeup Portfolio Interesting and Up-to-Date
Guest: Ashleigh Carpenter @ashleighcarpenter
Topic: The importance of testing in the makeup industry and the collaborative effort behind creating stunning portfolio images.
Episode Highlights:
1. The Art of Testing:
Overview: How creatives come together to produce breathtaking, portfolio-worthy images without commercial constraints.
- Ash’s Personal Experiences: Emphasising the critical role of frequent testing, especially for beginners.
- Benefits: Filling stylistic gaps and staying relevant, even for seasoned professionals.
2. Dynamics of Creative Control:
- Fashion Shoots: Exploring the seamless blend of talents among makeup artists, stylists, and photographers.
- Collaborative Process: From garment selection to the final makeup touches, each step is a collaborative effort.
- Unique Opportunities: Test shoots offer makeup artists a chance to exercise more creative input, especially when organizing the shoot themselves.
3. Practical Tips for Makeup Inspiration and Planning:
Tools and Resources:
- Pinterest: Using it too organise mood boards and create cohesive storyboards.
Financial Aspects:
- Cost Management: Discussing who should cover costs for studio space, equipment, and meals.
- Networking Strategies.
- Effective Networking: Strategies for connecting with potential collaborators.
- Presenting Your Vision: The importance of a clear vision to make your project compelling.
Conclusion:
Comprehensive Understanding: Gaining insight into the collaborative processes and strategic planning essential for successful makeup shoots.
Rates Guide
Pro Artist Discount Kit List
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Hi and welcome to the Makeup Insider. I'm your host, vanessa Barney, makeup artist, hairdresser, educator and all-round beauty junkie. If you've ever felt lost or lonely in your makeup career, this podcast is for you. I'm here to interview makeup artists and other industry professionals, to give guidance and be the mentor I needed early in my career. With a new episode every Tuesday, don't forget to hit subscribe so you don't miss a trick, and if you like what you hear, please rate and leave a comment. I hope you enjoy. Welcome back to the Makeup Insider, ash.
Speaker 2:Hello, thank you for having me again. It's a delight to be back and I'm excited to talk to everyone about testing and welcome audience for everyone listening.
Speaker 1:Yes, I'm excited to talk to you about testing as well, so let's start off the conversation as like. Like, what is testing and why do you test?
Speaker 2:Yeah, so testing in our industry. If anyone listened to Max's episode would have a little bit of an understanding, but if you didn't testing I would say the short of it is a group of people, of creatives in our industry that get together and collaborate and create beautiful images for your folio and no one gets paid for it. It's all free, but it's just to showcase your work without getting into the commercial industry or sector, and I would say that's a very short, brief summary of it.
Speaker 1:And why do you test?
Speaker 2:So why do I test? Well, I think that different stages of my career probably would have a different answer, but I suppose for the audience that's listening, that's getting into the industry. If you were to start from the beginning, testing is an excellent way to start to create a folio, because when you start off in the industry and you want to book the commercial advertising jobs and you don't have a folio, you need to have some sort of images or work to showcase what you can do. But it's very hard to get hired by these advertising companies if you don't have anything to begin with. So it's a little bit like when you are in, you know, year nine at high school or something like that, and you need to get your first job, whether it was at Priceline or the cinema or whatever but you have absolutely no experience whatsoever, so people tend to not hire you. So this sort of um jumps in there. You can, you know, create a um portfolio of images that's your style and start to collaborate. Then you've got something to go forward to Maya David Jones, wherever it is, and say this is the type of hair I can create for you. This is, you know, my style of work. It's very natural. This is the you know the images of what I can provide for you. So, yeah, that would be the start.
Speaker 2:So why do you test? So, yeah, that would probably be the start. And why do you keep testing as you go along? I would probably say it's because when you start to create a folio, you, at the very beginning, a very you're more limited to creating your personal style. Because you need to. You need to um collaborate with people at the start, when you haven't networked that much and their style might not necessarily be your style. So you start to um test in the beginning with sort of anything that you can jump on board, and at the start it will be sometimes pretty bad, but as you go along you will get better.
Speaker 2:And then the further you go along your career and you do start to have those advertising clients. Like myself, I already do have editorial jobs in my folio for magazines and I do have commercial advertising jobs in my folio. But the reason why I continue to test is because you're looking for those little gaps in the folio that you want to fill and create. That's your style still, and you know, I think it's important to stay relevant. You don't always want to put all of the commercial and advertising jobs that you are booked for in your folio. That creates a folio that is uniquely you, and if you are lucky enough that you're doing editorial all the time, that's excellent. But editorial work doesn't pop up all the time and you don't get those moments to have those beautiful images consistently running that's fresh and updated in your book if you don't do any test shoots.
Speaker 1:That's a fab explanation, thank you.
Speaker 2:How often do you test? I don't test as often anymore. In the beginning it would be quite a lot. So back in the day when I was at Shibui, I was working at the hair salon and trying to break into that industry, knowing that I was going to leave the salon. I was working a lot and doing a lot of test shoots on the side. So probably I wouldn't say every weekend but, you know, probably at least once a month I was doing a test shoot.
Speaker 2:Because when you do do your test shoots in the beginning, you some people will get the images back from the photographer and they'll want to put everything in their books straight away. But I don't recommend that because unless at the start you test with someone, you're not going to know if you are going to love the images or if they're going to come back and be your style or if they are a good quality, um and and you should be more selective of what you put in. So even if you you know, let's say at the beginning we're doing 10 test shoots, um, in the year you might only put five of those in your book. So I think at the beginning is important to frequently and consistently test. But these days. I have been in the industry for quite a while since I've left the salon I think it's been eight years, so I do have quite a solid folio. In saying that, though you know I might've gone the past year going, you know I haven't done a beauty shoot for a while. It'd be really nice to showcase, um, some beauty back in my folio and I might do I don't know, maybe maybe a few test shoots a year, but when I say test shoots, it's a really fine line. These days, when you become um, you know, busier with work and you've got more stuff in your folio.
Speaker 2:Between what's a test shoot and, let's say, what is a submission, um, that is definitely going into a magazine, whether it's an online magazine or something like that, because they are different and a test shoot could be something that you collaborate with a team. There's no deadline, you don't have to submit it into a magazine and you just release the images in your folio or your Instagram, whereas when you are doing a submission, doing a submission, um, sometimes you might already have the stylist or photographer or the um art director speak to the magazine, whether it's an online magazine, and they might give you a pull letter to say, you know, yes, we uh love this team. We agree that we're going to publish this submission you know, test shoot, if you want to call it that into our magazine and it's going to feature on. I don't know whatever it is, it's Marie Claire, european Marie Claire or whatever it is, and I don't know if you would call that such a test shoot.
Speaker 2:It's not really because it's actually going to a publication of some sort. So, realistically, I probably do quite a lot more of that or proper editorial work, and I'm still getting my fix of creativity where you're creating these beautiful images that aren't commercial or advertising work but they're not necessarily a test shoot, where it's not going to a publication and it's purely only for the folio, only for the instagram. Um, yeah, so look, there are two a little bit separate, separate things when you're doing the submission.
Speaker 1:Um, do you have sort of free range over what you're doing with the makeup? If you're doing makeup, or is there sort of guidelines from the stylist of what you need to to do with the feel of it?
Speaker 2:yeah. So, as you would know, um, generally it's. I suppose it depends who um starts off creating this submission, um for the magazine, and most of the time it's usually the stylist or perhaps the photographer that will approach the magazine, get the pull letter so that they can then take that pull letter to the, the clothing shops and get the the all of the styling source, yeah, the garments, the garments sourced um for the submission, which is a really important element, whereas I, oh, look and, and you can tell me what you think, but I tend to find probably the makeup artists don't, probably don't. Makeup artists don't, probably don't. I don't.
Speaker 2:Me personally, I don't probably approach the magazines as much these days, but back in the day I used to be a little bit more, take the reins and do a lot of the organizing of the team. So, yeah, I'd probably say it's more the photographer or the stylist. But in saying that if I was to do a beauty shoot, it's likely we probably won't always have a stylist, you know, for a test shoot and then it's more so me creating, you know the shoot and you know more directing of what's going on.
Speaker 1:Yeah, shoot, and I've. You know I'm more directing of what's going on. Um, yeah, how do you find it? Um, well, I've not ever really contacted a publication, um, and if I've organised the shoot then generally I mean it's up to me about what I want to do creatively. But I do talk to the rest of the team who are there as well, because if there is a stylist on board, it needs to fit in with the styling pieces as well.
Speaker 2:Oh no.
Speaker 1:I mean, I guess it is up to me, but then you sort of need to fit in with the feel of the shoot, right.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I do find the stylist majority of the time and photographer because they're already sort of so far along where they've, you know, heavily discussed it with the magazine of what they want to do and what that magazine expects have a general idea in mind of what they'd like to see done with the hair and makeup.
Speaker 2:But, you know, occasionally I think you'll get the art director or someone say, hey, you know what's like a fun little moment we can pop on the face or something like that for makeup, you know, for one of the shots, what's your thoughts on that? And that's when you can step in and, you know, give them advice and of course, you can like advise them on, you know, depending on what the skin tone of the model is, if what they're suggesting will actually work or what you know I don't know what her hair looks like. Is that going to work with you know I don't know what her hair looks like, is that going to work with? You know their vision and you can also, you know, chip in for sure. But I don't think, going into those sort of shoots, you are the lead director at all. I really think it's directed mainly by the stylist or the photographer or the art director.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and what about when you do like your test shoot that aren't being submitted.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I'd say the same thing as well. I think it depends at what point you get asked to be on the shoot and being hair and makeup, I don't think we are the first people that get popped onto those shoots. I think it sort of goes photographer and stylist generally will have a collaboration together and then they would usually pick the model and then I think the hair and makeup team in my eyes, always gets picked um towards the end. Um, and I think that as well comes down to the fact that in in a shoot, when you are creating a shoot for a submission or a test shoot, I do think the stylist does the most work.
Speaker 2:I really do, and that's like in an advertising job or a commercial job as well, just in the sense of they have to go to so much effort to network to have those clothing pieces.
Speaker 2:They have to source them, they have to do returns, they have to collect those clothing pieces, they have to source them, they have to do returns, they have to collect the clothing, they have to work out each individual shot what the clothing's um going to be. So I do feel like you know what the hair and makeup look like, looks like does come down to the clothing a lot, really. I mean, you never, you're always going to do it to suit the clothing, and that's probably why it's more say, but in regards to the test shoot, the test shoots, really, unless you are the one, um, creating the test shoot from the beginning, and you are, you know, uh, contacting the photographer and you're contacting the stylist and you're like, hey, this is my vision. Um, I think only then you will get a little bit more of, you know, equal say in the matter, um, and it does happen as well, um, but yeah, unless you're the one organizing it, you probably won't creatively.
Speaker 1:Um, yeah, have too much, too much, as as much, as much input, and it depends how sorry, I suppose, for me now being in a new city, most of my test shoots are me reaching out to people um, but when I test, was testing in melbourne, it was maybe more me sort of well, probably more a few years ago, actually more me coming on board, and then it was more directed by the stylist and the photographer. But now because I'm organizing it and it's to fill holes in my folio, I sort of have a bit more like creative lead, I suppose. But I'm always happy for direction because there's so many things that you can do with hair and makeup. You know, it can be really overwhelming to come up with one particular idea.
Speaker 1:So I love a bit of. I like a direction.
Speaker 2:I do too. Yeah, I really like direction and you know, this is the other thing. I think that contributes to how much say you're going to have. It depends what time and point you get put on the shoot. So if you are having a chat to a stylist or a photographer and you're out and about, you're like, hey, you know, it'd be really cool if we all do a shoot together and you're sort of in that conversation at the very start, I do think that you have a little bit more leeway because you are part of the creative process, whereas if you are asked to be on board a shoot because the hair and makeup artist has pulled out the day before because they're sick, um, you're pretty much at zero creative um capability of what's going to happen on that shoot oh, yeah, definitely, I kind of like that too, though.
Speaker 1:Yeah, um, I'm just bringing up your, your page on Instagram because I want to ask you about a shoot you recently did. Yeah, I like that because sometimes, yeah, it's it, then you don't have to. You know, it's not so overwhelming with all these options of what you can do. Oh, I totally agree you've just recently done a test shoot with Mia and I think it was a photographer, sam, and I love these images and the one is thank you this one so when it came to that shoot because I feel like you did some really fun creative stuff on that um was that your?
Speaker 1:did you come up with those ideas before you got to the shoot? Did you turn up and were inspired at time? How did how did that situation play out for you?
Speaker 2:yeah. So that creative process um was mainly me um directing what was going to happen on that shoot. And that came about because I was. I look at my folio, not all the time, but often enough. You know, once a month I'll check in and have a look at um what my folio looks looks like and what little gaps I need to fill. And I really feel like at that point I was like I need to do a beauty shoot. I haven't done a beauty shoot in quite a while. Um, given there was no stylist on board as well, uh gave me a lot more direction to say.
Speaker 2:But the process behind uh deciding what to do on that shoot was firstly locking in the talent. I locked in the talent and then I decide what I'm going to do. But generally, um, I work. I try to work with a photographer. That is my style Um. So I know that, going into the shoot straight away, I'm going to get images that are going to be you know what I'd hope um is my style in my book of what, what I'd like to see in there. Otherwise, what's the point of doing the shoot? Um, and then I would lock in the model, because you don't know what model is going to be available. So I would then contact the agencies in Melbourne, because I'm based in Melbourne and I would say I'm looking for a model in the next week or so and I'd give them a little mood board and I would say this is sort of like the lighting direction that we're going to go for it's a beauty shoot. I'm always very clear and upfront of what sort of images the agency is going to receive back.
Speaker 2:Um, that we take off the models and then, once we narrow it down, we lock in a model that we like. I have a little bit more of an idea of her features, you know, whether she's's got dark hair or light eyes or whatever it is. And then I start plotting away and I go okay, well, what, how many shots can we do in the time limit that we have? So, whether it's like a three hour shoot, whether we've booked a studio for a day, so that's my first question how many shots can we do? And then the second question is um, what, how, how are we going to make these looks cohesive? So it becomes a little bit more of a story. So, if I'm lucky enough to be um gifted product or something like that, and I'd like to feature the product that I'm using.
Speaker 2:I would try to have a story where the makeup looks are cohesive or connect together in some way and then, once I decide the general direction like I wanted to wear a red lip and then one of the shots she's got a reddish eyeshadow that ties in with the other shot with the red lip I start to source my images, um, of what I'd like to do with each of the looks. But I want to say, prior to that, I do spend quite a lot of time sourcing images for a mood board that is really specific to each scenario. So I will source images for the lining and then I'll source images for poses that I want to do. I will source images for the crops that I want to do as well, whether it's really tight on the lips or if it's pulled back and we're going to see styling in the outfit. I'll then have a section sourced for the styling, um, and then I would. It's actually, lastly that I decide then what looks I'm going to do for the makeup.
Speaker 2:After I've decided all or all of the rest of the things, those things sort of get sent in the original mood board to the agency and then where I get the inspiration from these days is. It's going to sound hilarious, but I have just started getting on the Pinterest bandwagon and my husband has been. We did our renovations in our house quite a few years ago and landscaping, and it was my husband saying I'll use the Pinterest for landscaping and use Pinterest for the interior shots. But I was always just going through Instagram and, and you know, saving into into different folders and I couldn't be bothered with Pinterest. Anyway, I got into the Pinterest bandwagon actually only a few months ago and I have to say it's amazing. And do you use it?
Speaker 1:I used it years ago, like I was addicted to it.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:It was Pinterest-ing my life, you know, but I don't use it now. Maybe I'll have to jump back on there.
Speaker 2:But I don't know if it's gotten better, because when I used to use it I thought, nah, I'm sort of seeing the same images pop up all the time. I don't know about this, but, but when I've been using it lately it is incredible. It comes down to the point where it even categorizes like different skin tones that you can look up for the genres, and it really it really um, like directs you into if you are sort of going a particular style, like, let's say, I'm looking for a red, matte, blurred lip, and that's sort of the direction I want to keep putting onto my mood board. It really pushes those images towards you and it's so easy, whereas I found with Instagram you kind of have to like if you're looking for a red, blurred lip, it doesn't just come to you. You've really got to search and search for those images. So, yeah, I'm on the Pinterest bandwagon.
Speaker 1:Okay, good, if you're specific right.
Speaker 2:It's really good for specific Ah, okay.
Speaker 1:That's good to know.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I highly recommend giving it a go. So, yeah, really good for that. And then I'll pop those into each category. So let's say that I do four I usually try and do an extra look just so that I've got a bit of option on the day. But let's say I've got, you know, anywhere between three, four or five looks. I think on that day we did about five or six. Then I'll pop them into the categories and I go in there with a pretty solid idea of what I'm going to do on the day.
Speaker 2:But you know, sometimes like um, I think it was the shot that you just showed me, um, people listening, she has a white eyeliner, a bit of like a shimmery eye and a red lip. That was, has you know that had a rough um idea of what I was going to do. Then I then I adjusted it to my own style on the day. Um, but yeah, definitely having the direction of this is this is the um, the, the idea behind it. And as we go along, we create a little storyboard and we pop each of the images into the one um I don't know what you want to call it storyboard PDF, where you can see everything, and that's a really nice way and very important to see if all of your work connects together.
Speaker 1:So, yeah, that was great, Ash. I had no idea that you got so specific.
Speaker 2:Yeah, how do you find it? Do you get or are you not finding you're doing as many shoots that you're leading at the moment?
Speaker 1:I find, actually, it really overwhelming to come up with the looks because there's so many options, um, but I feel like um, because everything I want to be a beauty look right, because I'm a makeup artist we always love the beauty shots.
Speaker 2:You know what?
Speaker 1:I mean, but when you're doing, um, a test shoot, it's not necessarily that you are going to do beauty looks. You know what I mean. So I do want to do a beauty shoot, but, um, I really like how you've broken that down with how to approach it with the different props, because sometimes you know the image will go up on the, the monitor, and you're like, I don't know you. Just, you know it's just the image, but then when the photographer props it, it completely changes the image. Oh yeah, so, um, yeah, I think, coming up with the props, I think that I think I need to do more work on my mood board, because I get lots of inspiration but I don't necessarily mood board it and do the props and the lighting and all of that.
Speaker 1:so much so I think that's really important.
Speaker 2:It is, and you know, the other thing with the crops, that dictates the crops for me, for this particular like if we're going to narrow down and talk about the beauty shoot in particular is if we have a stylist or not. So if you have a stylist, for me I don't mind if the model is bare and they don't have, you know, like, if their collarbones are showing, because there's no styling, but I do, in my eyes, think that it looks better when it is styled. In saying that, though, when you are doing a beauty shoot, it can be really hard to get a stylist to collaborate on that for a couple of reasons, and one of them being two different, two different directions, one of them being they. Then I don't know how much they're going to get fulfilled in their folio, because they're not seeing that much clothing. So if it was a stylist that did a lot of jewelry shoots and jewelry was their main client they wanted to target a jewelry shot, um, for example, which is really tight crops, you know, a beauty shoot would be the perfect story for them to pop in their folio. They can approach, um, a commercial client. Then that, you know, is quite tight, and this is how I can style it and make your beauty shots look sorry.
Speaker 2:Jewelry shots look really beautiful, but that isn't that often. So the stylists who are very good stylists are sourcing the clothes and they have to go back to the clothing companies a lot of the time and say, hey, I want to borrow these clothes and this is what we're going to use them for and this is where those shots are going to be seen and this is the publication that it's going to go to, and it becomes a little bit more of an ordeal and it becomes a little bit more like you have to tick each box and personally, when I go into a beauty shoot where it's a little bit more about me and less about the styling, I kind of I don't. I don't really want to have to constantly think about all those boxes that I'm ticking in the styling department when it's really not that focused on the styling. So, in that regards, a lot of the time, if it is a beauty shoot, not a, not a clothing shoe, if it's a beauty shoot and we're going in tight, I don't bother asking a stylist because I'm sort of wasting their time and it also is going to become an ordeal on my time because I don't like to submit to just any magazine and if the stylist is expecting us to submit, I actually prefer just to do a shoot a lot of the time and just have those images. I can put my followers straight away after they're edited and I can release on my Instagram. I don't want them to go to a little online magazine where I don't know the person that's created the online magazine and I don't know where it's going to be shown and I don't know the work that it's going to be up, like you know around. I want it to be. If it's going somewhere, it has to be really thought out. Um, if I like the style of the magazine and who it is, and only then will I do a submission, otherwise I prefer not to submit at all. So, um, in regards to that, that's why I don't get a stylist.
Speaker 2:And then, if you're not getting the stylist, that is why the crop becomes so important, because you know you might want to come in really tight to the lips or you want to have a moment of this or that and that's going to affect a lot of the crop situation alone. So, yeah, the crop is a lot to. It's a lot to think about? And also, how is that going to look on on the Instagram? That's a square crop and is that to give if you're going in super tight? Is that enough for the model's book? Is she going to get a lot out of that? Because in a model's book you can't just feature a tight crop of the lip. You need to pull out and you need to want to feature a natural makeup. So you know, I always feature a natural makeup, with no makeup, at the start of every beauty shoot, just to keep the agents really happy. Yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, Just a question on that shoot with the styling, because Mia has like a white top, I think, on in the shoot that I showed you. Did you just give her some instructions of what to bring to the shoot?
Speaker 2:For that particular shoot, for that particular shoot, for that particular shoot, sam has a friend who, um, works in costume design and was like here's a bunch of random things that she's got in her costume box. So we just, yeah, so we just use that. But on the last shoot that I did, that was, um, only about two or three shots and it was coming in a lot closer to the face I did just say to the model hey, can you bring a white singlet, a skivvy, a strapless bra?
Speaker 1:and I kept it really, really, really simple how many images did you end up getting out of this shoot?
Speaker 2:Oh, a lot, A lot. I probably did five different makeup looks. Was the hair slicked back for all of them? Hair slicked back because it was only me and that saves on time because we have the studio for a full day, so I wanted to keep it really makeup focused, so I slicked it back. I did five shots sorry, five different beauty looks, but in those shots we've got different crops and different angles, and we also shot on film as well, so there's a different, you know, texture of the images. Yeah, so I haven't actually released nearly many of those images from that shoot yet. Yes, did you have your polaroid there too? I always have my polaroid, of course that was a great explanation.
Speaker 1:I'm just sort of looking at my questions. I think we've um, oh so just a question on that with your looks. Did you did any of your looks sort of change, change direction or plans while they were, while you were doing that shoot, or does it all sort of stay to?
Speaker 2:plan. No, that one stayed quite to plan. That's not to say other shoots wouldn't, but that particular shoot was quite stayed to plan. You know a few little different tweaks here and there. But being so constricted with the time as well, because you are taking the makeup off, you're putting a full face back on constantly. You're doing them, the shoot, you don't. You're going to waste time by mucking around and you know going, oh, what about this and what about that? You just sort of really nut out the shoot beforehand, do your planning and then jump on set knowing exactly what you're going to do.
Speaker 1:Cool. And then you just with the photographer you knew Sam, so you just organised him before going to. Yeah, you'd have to do that before you go into the agency. Um, is there anything else you want to add on that topic?
Speaker 2:with those like, so I'm gonna ask a couple of the questions that the um audience have asked uh, I think that pretty much covers um quite a lot of it, the moral story being you can always test, doesn't matter how, how much experience you have.
Speaker 1:It's really important, it's really important to test so one of the questions from the audience was that they have a concept and how do I go about approaching other collaborators?
Speaker 2:so this is a really good question. Confidence I find that when I first started out, obviously I had no or very little networking across the Melbourne scene because I was at a hair salon prior Melbourne scene because I was at a hair salon prior. So really it was just a matter of finding photographers that you like on Instagram and just messaging them and saying, hey, you know, I would love to collaborate with you one day. Or I have this idea in mind. If you want to shoot together sometime soon, what's your thoughts? And you can only get back a yes or a no, mind if you want to shoot together sometime soon, what's your thoughts? And you can only get back a yes or a no, and if you don't ask, you will always get back a no. So just having the confidence to ask someone, um is definitely how you go about it. So I would either go um and yeah, mention, hey, in the future, do you want to do something so that you're in the back of their mind because you know they might have some ideas, um come along in the future and then they can contact you, or you can approach them, um, with hey, I want to do a shoot. And this is what I'm thinking, and I think in that scenario, it's good to have a little mood board or something like that, because then they can get your vibe too, because if you don't have a folio and, um, you're starting out approaching people, they don't know whether you're going to go on set and make the model look like a Gothic, or or if your makeup's really, really, really, really natural because you've you don't actually have a previous folio. So if you were's really really, really, really natural because you don't actually have a previous folio, so if you were starting out, um, that's what I would do and, you know, be really clear on the direction that you'd want to go.
Speaker 2:And then, as you work along, when it comes to um, approaching people, you've networked more, you know um, you know more people and, yeah, I think it's just a matter of reaching out. And I still reach out, like quite often with people, like I'm not often often, but often enough with people. I don't know that I haven't worked with um too much before if I like their style or people. I'm not too sure if they'll want to do a shoot, but yeah, you just have to, you know, go with it and see if it turns out. But yeah, you can only get a no, so you don't ask. You won't get a yes, yeah, yeah um.
Speaker 1:Do you normally reach out on instagram or email?
Speaker 2:I usually reach out on instagram, um, that reason being because it's very likely the person just wants to quickly jump onto your instagram page and see what your genre looks like and what your work looks like. Um, and I feel like when you're collaborating on a test shoot, it's not a commercial client. That needs to be quite formal. I would never, ever, approach an advertising client just through a DM on Instagram or anything like that, but I feel like when it's creatives, you can be a little bit more informal and they can jump on your Instagram quickly. But one thing that I do quite like to receive these days and I get almost it's just my little pet hate that happens sometimes is when I get someone message me and they say hey, are you free for a shoot on X, y and Z and there's no more detail. It's just that and that you know whether that's someone I know or don't know, whatever.
Speaker 2:Um, that really bugs me, because I need to know what I'm going into and I need to know, um, who is the model, what's the team, what's the location? Is this something I've already got? It's similar in my book. Did I just shoot the model last week? Um, and that really affects whether I'm going to do the shoot or not. So I think if you are are approaching someone, just have the courtesy to actually go into detail of um who you are, where you live, you know what suburb where you want to shoot. Um, all the details, not just um. Contact someone and say, hey, do you want to do a shoot next week? Question mark that's it. It does happen. It happens, yeah, yeah, do you get that?
Speaker 1:uh, yeah, I'm gonna add some things in just about reaching out to people here, because, um, I suppose for me, yeah, it's one like I get people who reach out to me for all different reasons. And one thing these are just things, either by email or via instagram, I just think always use a person's name, like Hi Vanessa, not Hi Han, not Hi, I don't know. I just think it's really important to be Hi Vanessa, because if it's just Hi, lovely, it could just be a copy and paste that people are sending out to anyone, right? And I guess you know when you are asking to collaborate, it is a numbers game. But people want to feel special, people want to feel like, oh, they like my work when they want to work with me. So I would always say use the person's name. I would also always make sure that you follow the person oh my gosh yeah um, and if you want to work with somebody, I would actually say why?
Speaker 1:and mention some of their work, like say, oh hi, ash, I really loved that last shoot that you did with Mia. It was. You know, it was beautiful, do you know what I mean? So at least you know that they've taken a look at your work and you know they've taken a look at your work and you know they know who you are. Um, and then I would say, definitely put a mood board on which you said as well, and also, um, you know any other team members that you might have? And when you're planning on doing it and sort of giving someone all of the information. I just think it's really important that when you do reach out to somebody to collaborate, that you actually have an interest in them and their work.
Speaker 2:Do you agree? Yeah, yeah, definitely, definitely, 100%, because you know you're showing that their time is valuable to you and that's really important.
Speaker 1:I mean people want to. Well, I want to collaborate with people who align with me, not just in my style, but, if you know, just even in the type of people they are. They want to be people that I want to be around you know, so, yeah, I think it's that's really, really important. Just come from a really genuine place.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I agree, and definitely naming people their name, I think is really good, because I know this is a little off topic, but if I ever get an email, let's say it's an inquiry for a personal job. You know, like I don't do weddings, but I do get sometimes inquiries and it's hello, and then blah, blah, blah. These are the details. I'm like you've just copy and pasted this, yeah, and I'm definitely not as interested now because I don't know if you really care about my work or not. Yeah.
Speaker 1:Especially if it's not something you do all the time, right, like you know, whereas if they said, I love what you did on such and such, you're like oh they, our styles align, our worlds align yeah, I definitely agree and then the last question that I had from the audience was about you know who pays. Is it a? Is it something that's split between the stylist, photographer, the makeup artist, like who pays, I suppose, for the studio?
Speaker 2:space. That's a really good question and when answering this question, I can only give my personal opinion and view and I think a lot of people would have a different opinion about this and I think it definitely comes down to like quite a few factors, but only my personal view of how I like to approach things. I think it's a really nice gesture that the team split the costs. So usually when it comes to the team that doesn't include the model, the model generally doesn't pay for anything at all. Um, I'm not really too sure why that is, but it's just how it is. The model doesn't pay for anything. So don't ask the model. And if you are doing a test shoot or a submission and you have, for example, the photographer has hired an assistant for the day to help out on that shoot, or if you have a makeup assistant, I don't think the assistants should have to pay for the cost either, because you are collaborating to have something in your folio and if that makeup artist assistant cannot put that in their folio, they have not. The thing that they're taking away from that project assisting you is the education, but they shouldn't have to pay. They shouldn't have to pay for that. So, in regards to the cost splitting, I believe it should be like the photographer, the stylist, the hairstylist, the makeup artist should split the cost just because I feel like, for example, let's say the shoot came to a thousand dollars and you're hiring studio, that $1,000 is a lot on someone's shoulders, when if everyone split it and you're looking at more, like $200 each, it's a lot more. You know, easier for everybody and it encourages people to want to shoot again as well. So, in regards to splitting the cost, I would say the team, but then it can get even more fiddly with the cost.
Speaker 2:Things like lunch. I believe the lunch should be split across the team. When I say team, I don't mean the assistants or the model Team, I mean the people that are listed. I like to either do like group eats on the day or I like the idea if it's quite a large team, hey, if everyone wants to just bring one item to like you you know, along to the shoot, whether it's like I don't know whatever, it is sandwiches or a salad or some dips or whatever, and you've got some snacks along the shoot and then everyone's contributing. I think it's really nice and at the end of the day, we're all adults. I don't need another adult buying me my lunch for the day, like we can support ourselves and buy our food, um. But you know, I think the studio um cost needs to be split amongst the team as well if you are choosing to shoot into a studio.
Speaker 2:But sometimes it can very rarely get brought up things like photographers equipment if they've had to hire lights or perhaps the stylist might, you know, bring up that they've had to ship things to certain places, and that's where I suppose it can be a little bit more a discussion. But in my view only my personal opinion I don't think things like that should be split amongst the team and I'd be interested to hear what you think. But my reason in being is that a makeup artist kit costs so, so much money and I think that gets overlooked constantly of how much money our kit costs and I think things like hiring lights or additional expenses. You know they could have those lights on them, they could have pre-purchased, that could be part of their kit. So if they're having to hire them, that's not really a cost that we should then pay. And I understand things like photographers's equipment can be quite expensive and it probably would be up to $100,000, but our kits, I believe, are around $100,000.
Speaker 2:If you are buying really good quality products, you know, for example, just my two Zuka cases alone are $1,000 and we haven't even got to the case bags that go on top of them and the additional one. And if you've got all the Armani foundations, um, you know I've got 14 shades of Armani well, there's $1,400 right there. It adds up so quickly. A ghd iron, you're looking at $300, and we haven't even bought the mini irons, the, the curler, the hot tongue, the wave, whatever. You know it is like hair dress, hair cutting scissors for onset. This is the line you're looking at. You know, anywhere between you know, $1,000 to $3,000, some hair extensions, like it is so, so, so expensive.
Speaker 2:So I don't believe that we makeup artists and hairstylists should have to pay for other departments hiring because they don't have it in their kit. And also, you know, it really, really doesn't get brought up often and I think the photographers do expect it, but sometimes they will send the images off to an editor to get them edited and obviously there's a fee usually associated with that. Not that I've had photographers ask to split that amongst the team, but again, I don't feel like that's something that the team should have to pay for, and that is purely down to the fact that a photographer can edit them themselves. It's their choice if they want to then send it off because they're too busy or whatever. It is. Um, what, what, what, which you on the same, what is? What's your thoughts?
Speaker 1:yeah, um, so I'll just tell my experience with test shoot. So, um, I've been doing, you know, more since moving to sydney and actually I did do a few before I left Melbourne and, to be honest, I didn't really ever have any photographers ask me to pay for the studio, but I always offered and then ended up contributing because I just don't feel like they should have to pay for the studio.
Speaker 2:No, and also just a note on that one that's really subject to the shoot as well. This is where it all comes down to subject to the shoot, because some photographers have a studio that they work out of free of charge and they don't have to pay for one. So in that situation, obviously there's cost. But if a photographer is hiring a studio, well yeah, it should be split amongst the team.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I mean, you know a lot of people like in one person I can remember she's like no, no, don't worry. And I'm like no, I'm happy. You know, I'm happy to pay it's part. You know, the test is mine. And also, then when it came to lunch she paid and I was like, no, I will pay you some money because I don't know, I would feel like that's what I would want done back for me, right, I haven't ever had anyone ask those things that you mentioned with the equipment and all of that and the like postage.
Speaker 1:But I agree with you, I feel like that's their sort of own individual thing, so that's on them. Like you know, I buy different things for shoot all the time, you know, and I I feel like that's on me and that's my responsibility. So, yeah, and I agree with, I agree with your point of view entirely. But yeah, um, I think if I was organizing a beauty shoot and it was, you know, purely for me, and, um, you know, I got a photographer on board then I may say, oh, don't, I'll pay for the studio, I'll, I'll foot the bill, um, and yeah, just because it would really depend on the situation yeah, because even then if, even if it's your beauty, shoot that photographer still getting those images for their book, because otherwise why would they bother doing the shoot?
Speaker 2:yeah, true you know, if you had, um, if you approach someone and and you know, you said I love your work and it's a photographer, um, and they're like I'm not really that interested. And you said I think this has never happened. But you said, you know, I'd love to pay you, um, you know, and I'll do the model and and you, you know, I'll pay you your rate and this is for my indulgence and it's for you know, I don't know whatever, it is my advertising of my banner, of my website, I don't know whatever. In that situation, you should be paying for that shoot because they're not wanting to be part of your thing to begin with. But, realistically, if you're all doing a test shoot, no, they like they're getting it out of their book.
Speaker 1:They, you know they're getting something out of it, yeah, yeah but yeah, if I mean I suppose you, you know, are quite well like you can do that if you've got a photographer you really want to shoot with. You love their style and maybe you're just not at their level, but you want to have some shots in your folio, you can definitely pay them to do a test, right?
Speaker 2:You could, yeah, you could. Well, models do that all the time. Yeah, yeah, models do that all the time. Not so much the hair and makeup, I don't believe, but yeah, models, that's quite common to do that being tested. Yeah.
Speaker 1:Ash, that has been so good um. We were thinking we wouldn't be able to talk for long on this point.
Speaker 2:I know I can never shut up. It's the head, it's the hairdressing background. You know, you, you and I. We know how to talk for ages.
Speaker 1:Even with the hairdryer going. Thanks, so much, Ash.
Speaker 2:It's been a pleasure. Thank you for having me Pleasure.
Speaker 1:Thanks for joining me today on the Makeup Insider. I hope you've enjoyed the show. Please don't forget to rate and subscribe, and I'll see you soon. Bye for now.