The Makeup Insider
The Makeup Insider is a fortnightly one-on-one podcast exploring the life and career of makeup artists, hosted by freelance mua Vanessa Barney.. Finding your community of other likeminded mua’s – the creative, artistic, talkative, flexible, adaptable with a good eye for colour kind-of-people, can often be daunting. Like, where do you start? The Makeup Insider is designed for just that. To build a collaborative online community of artists to build their confidence, connections and help drive their career to the next level.If you’re just starting out or have been in the industry for a long time, tune in now, check out the key takeaways in the show notes and subscribe so you never miss an episode. Find Vanessa @vanessabarney @the.makeupinsider
The Makeup Insider
Behind the Glam: Sarah Laidlaw's Remarkable Rise as Priceline's Hair and Makeup Director
In this episode of The Makeup Insider Podcast, join Sarah Laidlaw, a prominent figure in the world of hair and makeup, as she offers a candid look into her journey from a hairdresser to freelance artist to leading the hair and makeup direction at Priceline.
Sarah shares firsthand experiences from her career, including insights into fashion photo shoots and the balance between client demands and creative expression.
With an outstanding career that spans 30 years, Sarah has her own unique style for which she has become renowned: classic beauty with a contemporary edge. Sarah’s work reflects an artistic sensibility, which coupled with her attention to detail, produces a ceaselessly stellar result.
She effortlessly walks the line between commercial polish and editorial strength and is equally in her element creating everything from subtle, minimal looks to radical transformations. “The transformative ability of hair and makeup is what excites me! I adore both the simplicity of effortless, natural looks right through to big, couture, sculptural shapes.”
Sarah is also 3 x Australian Makeup Artist of the Year. AHFA Make-Up Artist of the Year 2017, and MAGAP Make-Up Artist of the Year 2018 & 2020.
In addition, a series of makeup awards-
3 x NSW Make-Up Artist of the Year - 2018, ’19 & ‘20
3 x Event/Bridal Make-Up Artist of the Year - 2018, ’19 & ‘20
2 x Beauty Makeup Artist of the Year - 2018 & ‘20
Editorial Makeup Artist of the Year -2020
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Hi and welcome to the Makeup Insider. I'm your host, vanessa Barney, makeup artist, hairdresser, educator and all-round beauty junkie. If you've ever felt lost or lonely in your makeup career, this podcast is for you. I'm here to interview makeup artists and other industry professionals, to give guidance and be the mental I needed earlier my career, with a new episode every Tuesday. Don't forget to hit subscribe so you don't miss a trick, and if you like what you hear, please rate and leave a comment. I hope you enjoy. Today on the Makeup Insider, I'm joined by the fabulous Sarah Laylau. Thanks for being here, sarah, thanks for inviting me. Pleasure, pleasure. Let's tell the audience where they can find you on socials and what you spend most of your time doing now as a hair and makeup artist.
Speaker 2:Okay, well, my Instagram's my name at Sarah Laylau, my website as well, but that's pretty much all I do. I haven't really gone down the TikTok thing. I just think it's just a whole another time wasting trauma at this point, but I know I have to do it. That's later, though. What do I spend most of my time doing? Well, always, hair and makeup together. It's very rare that I get booked for one or the other.
Speaker 2:Okay, these days, it used to be that you had to specialise. When I first moved to Sydney, which was 16 years ago, my agency were like no, you can't do both, you must specialise. And I was like, oh, that's ridiculous. And for me at the time I was like look, there's lots of great makeup artists, but there's not that many great hairdressers. So well, there are, but they're in salons, in the freelance world. So I was like just mark up me as hair and I'll do makeup as well. And I always just kept doing it, because I was like I'm not letting go of my favourite things.
Speaker 2:So, yeah, so what do I do? Mostly I used to say editorial, print, advertising, bit of celebrity, and I've done TV commercials, film, bridal music videos, etc. Tv shows. But since COVID it's changed a bit really Well, editorial there's two and a half magazines left in Australia now and in the nicest possible way, I feel like a lot of the fashion editors or people who are deciding how those editorials are shot, are a little bit junior burger and they're they're just not creative. So everything's just boring. So I don't really want to do it anymore.
Speaker 2:So I shoot my own editorial, like you know, go and do love jobs, do days shooting with a beautiful team and then we just submit it. Okay, that way you get the creative control, yeah, get to do what you want to do. And then if someone likes it, they can print it. And that's what I do with editorial now. Print advertising I still do a lot of that. Tv shows I only do if it comes up, like if celebrity pulls me in. Celebrity stuff's quiet and down. Since COVID, not as many are coming here. It's speeding up again now. But yeah, and I do a lot of personal clients these days, a lot of people going to events and you know all of that stuff. So it's still a good mix. It's still a good mix and I love it Because I think if you do all one thing you get a bit bored.
Speaker 1:Yeah, true, or burnt out? And what about stuff with price line? Do you?
Speaker 2:Oh, yeah, so they've got me as the creative director. Oh, okay, yeah. So that term's interesting because I think people think it means I decide everything and I don't. I'm more like a glorified ambassador. Okay, so the ambassadors, they have usually a wealth. There's four or five and they're, you know, either celebrities or personalities.
Speaker 2:So for them, talking about price line stuff, it's I love this thing, you know, this is what I've used, whereas for me it's more from a pro point of view yeah, this is what it'll do. If you've got this kind of skin, or if you're looking for this kind of, you know, finish on the skin or eye shadow, eyeliner, et cetera, this is what you could use. So it's really fun. Actually, there's such a fun company and because they have so many products, it means it's kind of this endless joy of testing. Yeah, wow, that sounds fun. Well, it's really fun. Look, I don't know the numbers properly, but one thing I do know is with eye creams, I think it's something like 278 eye creams they have in store. Oh, wow, they might not have it in every store, but that's what they stock. And so you go when you think then lipstick colors, nail polish colors, lash options, eye shadows, foundation, it's actually insane, so it's really fun.
Speaker 1:Yeah, does that mean you do the hair and makeup for the campaigns? Some of them.
Speaker 2:Because a price line about based in Melbourne. Yeah, so some things get done there and depending on who it is like, say with Chrissy, chrissy Swan she has her own personal hair and makeup. So they don't fly me down to Melbourne to do that because Chrissy uses her people. But when we're doing the little in-store magazine which is called U Magazine, I do all the beauty stuff in that.
Speaker 1:Oh, fun. And what are the things Like? What's some other little projects you do with them?
Speaker 2:Oh, like I do a lot of beauty writing, so if there's yeah, there's a lot of articles, I do master classes for internal, for all of the beauty advisors and stuff like that, to kind of, you know, rev up their education and make it easier for them to talk to people in store, because I think some of them are professional makeup artists, some of them are not, and so it just gives them all a little bit more knowledge to kind of go, oh, you're looking for a matte eye shadow in a yep, okay, with your skin tone, this would work, all you know. It's really fun.
Speaker 1:Oh fun. And with the beauty writing, is that something that you've done before?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I've done it for a long time for different people because you know different beauty press would reach out and say, hey, we're doing a story on like red lips for this season. Could you answer these questions for us? And you know it ends up being 18 questions which are like you know they'll ask a question like what's the best red lip? And you think really, okay, if you are Indian, it might be this tone, if you're African, it could be this. If you have thin lips, if you have big lips, if you want shine, if you want matte, like. So it's a big, big answer often, but I really enjoy it. Like English is my favorite subject at school, so it's fun.
Speaker 1:Oh, that sounds. Yeah, I mean, I'm always like fascinated with the writing side of things, just because I suppose for me I'm not like that's not a strength of mine. So I'm always finding it really interesting with makeup artists when they do it, because I'm it's they always do it so well.
Speaker 2:Well, it's an entirely different skill set. Yeah, yeah, you know, it's like being a builder who's also good at interiors. Yeah, you know interior design. So I think, because it's such a different skill set, not everybody can do it. I mean, not everybody can do education in front of people. Not everybody can talk about product while they're working. All of that's a learnt skill set. I think my mum was an English teacher.
Speaker 2:And you know, like I grew up reading everything, so I just it's just part of that personality, part of my personality that I love. I'd miss it if I didn't do it, I think.
Speaker 1:Yeah, no it sounds. And when you just said the talking about products while you're working, that definitely is a skill. It is. It is. I suppose, actually hairdressing would help with that, because you know we're taught to retail products and you've got to talk about product while you're using it.
Speaker 2:So yeah, there is that, but also I did my apprenticeship at Tognini's in Brisbane and even as a first year apprentice, right through, we were taught what we called platform education, which was you know, being able to stand up on stage doing a haircut, doing a style and talking to an auditorium of people and not having any dead space, like any dead air time.
Speaker 2:And we would have to stand up in front of the rest of the salon on a training night and talk through what we were doing and they would be like keep talking, can't see what you're doing, you've got your back to us, you're blocking it, you're not showing us. That didn't even make sense, like you know, and so you got really like oh yeah, can you see this angle? Or can you see this? You know, and I saw. I learned it in the hairdressing sphere, yeah, but it meant that I was very aware of where I placed a model, like where the camera was or where the audience was moving the model or moving towards the camera, so that you know, or doing a little bit of it and going can you see that? And then doing it more with makeup, you know, because with hair, people are very visual in this industry and often if you explain how to do something, they just go blink, blink, blink, blink and they're like I know what you're talking about, but when you show them they go right. That's in my brain now.
Speaker 1:Yep, all right, let's go back to the beginning, because you mentioned Todd Neneys. Yeah, Neneys, start from the beginning.
Speaker 2:Okay, so the very beginning. Yeah, I started doing work experience in a hair salon in like literally the week after I finished grade 12. So it was like the 10th of December and I didn't think I wanted to be a hairdresser. I was procrastinating and thought that'd be hilarious Because, you know, my school had taught us to do a lot of like work experience. They sent us on quite a few work experience moments which I thought was incredible because it gave you such an insight into what people actually did at work. You know people glorify jobs and then you think you know it'd be like I want to be. You know, a window dresser in a department store, and then you'd go and do it and you're like, no, no, you're a furniture removalist, like that's actually what you are, yes, and you're dirty and you're sweaty and it's just, and you're working like in a cupboard, like this in a city, you know. So the reality of what you do. I always I was like that's amazing and I had thought I wanted to work in law. I thought I wanted to be a barrister. So I went and did work his strings in law firm and hated it. It was so dry. I was like, yeah, no, that was so conservative I couldn't deal. And so anyway I thought who do you think is hilarious? You know, I'd never considered seriously doing it and it was like autopilot Talking my way into getting work experience. And then I did the work experience, which was great.
Speaker 2:And in that first week, benny Tognini, who was the big boss and who was one of the best hairdressers in the country, one of their best hairdressers in the actual world. He got an award called World Master of the Craft that they gave to 10 hairdressers on the planet. So I was lucky enough to work under him. But in that first week he was making avant garde wigs out of metal shavings and I was his little passer-up-er-er and my little brain just was like what is this magic? And anyway I had a great time.
Speaker 2:And at the end of that week he went, come in and talked to me on Monday and I was like, yeah, sure, didn't even question what that was about, just was like la, la, la, just flipping through, you know, like Bambi. And on the Monday he went okay, you start now. And I was like start, what? You're a prentice. And I was like oh no, I'm going to go to uni. And he was like then why are you here? And I was like work experience? And he was like no, you're here because I need a prentice. And I was like, oh right, weird. And then he was like look, it's December, we're about to go into the busiest period of the year. You're a hard worker, everyone gets on with you. How about you do a summer job? How about you come and work with us for Christmas and make some money? And then uni will come out in whatever February. And I was like yeah, yeah, yeah, so did that had the best time.
Speaker 2:Uni came out, went to one of my seniors and went, what should I do? And he said, are you having fun? I was like yes. He said we'll defer, go back next year. And I was like, yeah, great idea. And I just never went.
Speaker 2:And so I fell into a creative industry, entirely fell into it. My grandmother was horrified. She thought I was going to be a white collar worker like the rest of the family. And then when I started winning awards, she was like, okay, I'm happy now. Then we took graphs quite funny. And then I did my apprenticeship for years, the standard, which was intensive training at that salon. It was intensive training, which was amazing At the time it was difficult Because you know you're learning something entirely new. You're working with a moving, ephemeral subject that changes with the weather, with people moving, flipping, all of it. And yeah, it was intense. But it was great and I'm so incredibly lucky I landed there, because if I'd landed in some other salon that wasn't as good I would have hated it and I never would have continued. I probably would have ended up working in an office in like some corporate job and hating life.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so it was the thing. It was because they had they had such a creative aspect and competitions. I'm assuming A lot, a lot.
Speaker 2:My first competition was when I'd been hairdressing for six months. Yeah, so there was a series of competitions called the IHA it was the International Hedressing Society, from memory and, oh no, ihs, ihs. And they were held in like nightclubs during the day, on a Sunday, and they'd set up a stage and everybody in each section would compete live. You'd have 20 minutes to complete whatever it was you were doing. So, being a first year, there was a first year blow dry, because you couldn't do anything else. Nobody knew what to do. So I, my boss, insisted I enter, and I was like, oh no, I don't know what I'm doing. Anyways, like, what happens is somebody else cuts the hair for you. I'll teach you. You know, I'll cut it. I'll teach you how to blow dry it. You go on stage, you blow dry it.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Okay. So I had to choose a model. You know do all of that stuff went on stage and I'd coloured it, with the head colourist overseeing, but I was like I want it to be like this, I want it to be like that. She helped me with the formula, yep, and then I did it physically, did it, you know, and then entered it, and so the colour was an open colour section. So you're competing against hairdressers that have been hairdressing for 40 years and second years and whoever. And I did my first year blow dry. So one, my first year blow dry, which was great because it was Benny Tognani haircut. Yeah, it was stunning, and my model was stunning and had then since became my best friend forever and yeah, we're still. We're still the best of best of friends and I ended up winning the open colour. Again. It's all these old hairdressers who hated my guards because I was this little newbie and I went back to the salon. Benny was back there doing building wigs for some show. He didn't come to the competition and I came back with these three awards like one for colour, one for blow dry, and then the overall big like, like all of the columns, and it was hilarious. So that kind of.
Speaker 2:Started it and our salon were very much competitive salon as in. You were expected to put your work out there. You're expected to prep, you're expected to shoot either you're not shooting every weekend but at least doing something. You're either bringing a model in to work on something you were training, you were assisting someone on their shoot, you're working on showpieces like it was like if you weren't in on a weekend you weren't committed. Yeah, yeah, and so you know.
Speaker 2:Then on it went and you know, as I got a bit further in, like maybe third year I entered apprentice of the year for the first time. Didn't get in, entered on in fourth year, you know. But all the while, like you're doing cutting competitions where you're cutting hair on stage 20 minutes done, drops, you know, finished, blow dry, get judged, all of that and I did really well in a lot of those and on it went. Did you do good? Because it put you under pressure? Yeah, did you do the makeup on? No, no, I had no idea I didn't, wasn't doing that at the time.
Speaker 2:Tracy Tognini, who's Benny's wife, she was a makeup artist and she did all our makeups for shows and composition work and stuff. So that was amazing, and so I was always watching makeup artists. You know, I mean hairdressers, do, don't you? Yeah, you're always going. Oh, that was good. How did that work, you know? Yeah, yeah, before YouTube. Yeah, she was my first ever makeup lesson. Oh really, tracy did a makeup lesson for a group of us in the salon and like, yeah, so a makeup lesson to put makeup on yourself or to put it on someone else On someone else.
Speaker 2:Yeah, even though that didn't really start me, I just went. Oh, that was fun, anyway, whatever Okay.
Speaker 1:Okay, so did you stay at the salon after you finished your apprenticeship? Did you stay on there?
Speaker 2:No, I finished apprenticeship and then I was a bit tired. Yeah, because it was so intense. Yeah, and I wanted to be a fashion stylist, oh, and so I'd talk to this photographer. Oh, no, I wanted to be a fashion stylist, so I wanted to work out how to do that. Yeah, and I wanted to go part time. And so I went to Benny and he went no, we don't do part time. And I went okay, bye, I left because a couple of my other workmates had left and gone to a salon called Vogue National. Yeah, and so I went and worked at Vogue two days a week and then I had found a fashion photographer and she was like, oh, I was just about to get a stylist up from Sydney because, of course, I was in Brisbane, I'll teach you what to do. I was like, great, she went I won't pay you until you know what you're doing probably six months. And I went, great, so I worked for her for three, six months, probably four days a week, worked two days a week in the salon to make food money yeah, pretty much right, food and rent money. And yeah, and just then I was a fashion stylist. I was a fashion stylist for four years altogether.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and the funny thing that happened during that time was Togninis was very well known in Brisbane because, you know, everyone was always winning Australian Hedrists of the Year, or avant-garde Hedrists of the year, or State Hedrists of the Year or Colorists of the Year. And so the makeup artists who I worked with none of them were hairdressers and they'd be like, oh, I'm not doing hair in front of you, that is embarrassing, you have to do it. And I was like okay, and so I'd be using their kit or whatever and just showing them and go, do it like this, do it like that, you see how that does that you know, just so that you know we'd get it, get the shot happening. And then I'd have to sit and wait for them to do their work, and so I'd just watch and I had learned to learn by watching. Okay, as a hairdresser, you often stand behind a senior and just watch what they're doing. You know you do all of the technical stuff, like all of the. You know learning angles and this and that and doing all the hardcore so soon, like you know how do you section and how to watch all of the physics of it. But then you watch, and so I was watching and I'd be like, wow, that was that transformed her.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I just found it interesting and I kind of started doing it on my friends at home because I lived with two really close girlfriends, yeah, and I would send them to work with the weirdest hair and makeup because they'd go can you do my hair? Sure, you know, or can you do my makeup? And every morning they wanted a wing, black wing dye. So at that stage it was the early nineties, mid nineties, and we were wearing winged eyeliner every single day. So I would go on me do winged liner on two friends, send them out, sometimes with a hardcore red lip, and off to work. I was just playing and we'd get out the little snippy snap camera like chicken chicken and take photos. So I'd do these photo shoots of them and dress them up and do their makeup and hair and take these really ridiculous photo shoots which were really fun. It does sound fun, yeah, and I just think I just learnt from about 20 different makeup artists. You do, I didn't ever do a course, no.
Speaker 1:Nothing. Do you remember what you used for makeup back then, like what was the?
Speaker 2:no clue yeah.
Speaker 1:I always find it fascinating, like the old kids, because it didn't matter, makeups just come a long way. Right, it wasn't as much available. And now, even when I started, there wasn't as much makeup available.
Speaker 2:No, the technology, especially in foundations, has really changed. I feel like eye shadows, yeah, but not so much, yeah, mascaras not so much. You know, brow there's a lot more brow products and a lot more brow interest. We didn't really even care about brows back then, to be honest. You didn't even brush them, nobody cared. No, they were just fucked right.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that was a fucking lie, yeah, pretty much yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, actually, always on shoots, the first thing you do would pluck the models eyebrows, Tighten them up, not anymore.
Speaker 1:No.
Speaker 2:Yeah, exactly, and reshape them. Yeah, we were eyebrow shapers in that era, you know, because it would make such a difference to open up that eye by, you know, taking the tail up to here and taking this like whatever, we would totally alter them, do what was needed and that was normal and, you know, nobody ever questioned it.
Speaker 1:Hmm, how are you changed? Yeah, how they have changed. So you're a fashion stylist. Yes, so you did that for about four years.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and then I just got sick of it. I thought at that time I've got a four year attention span, like four years of hairdressing, four years of fashion styling. I'm out. And it was mostly because with fashion work you would have at least a day of prepping and finding clothes and putting it all together, sometimes three, sometimes a week, a day of shoot and then at least a day of returns. And I was like, oh, I'm doing like three to five days of work for one day's shoot and the shooting parts, the fun bit. Oh, I said, yep, okay, like I don't want to be returning clothes, I don't want to be.
Speaker 1:So that's when you're like, yeah, that was fun, but I need to be the hair and makeup artist.
Speaker 2:I just thought I just want to turn up on a shoot with a bag, yep, and I felt like it was going back to basics, to turn up with a kid and be able to do anything out of that kid and not have to totally rethink it every time I went to work. Yeah, so that's what freelance.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and the funny thing was I hadn't really done makeup professionally, I'd just been doing it. All my friends and I'd started doing people's weddings who were close friends, and they go can you do it for me? I'd be like sure, whatever. Because we didn't think it seriously. Back then it was like everything was just much more relaxed. And then a friend of mine, his name's Nick, and he had been a tea and tidy at Tognini's. So if you're not in the hairdressing industry, a tea and tidy is someone who literally comes in, makes tea and cleans up like cleans color bowls, sweeps up. They don't touch hair. They may shampoo hair if they've had a bit of training. But yeah, so when I did my first week of work experience, he was a tea and tidy and we remained friends. Yeah, by this stage you know, I'd done my four year apprenticeship. I was four years through, so eight years of friendship. He'd gone through fine art college, he had worked in art stores and he was now working in an ad agency as an art director. And he went I want you to do this TV commercial for me. And I went oh, I don't know how to do that. And he went you'll be fine, Whatever.
Speaker 2:And so I go on this TV commercial and they give me a storyboard and I'm like, and it was, all you know, almost cartoon, and it was for Mother's Day, and it was like this, really like sixties. You know, mom in the kitchen with the headband and full hair, with a flick in a bob, you know, really stylized winged line, a red lip, and I was like okay. And so I'm looking at this picture and I had, I had some hairpieces in the car because I always would take hairpieces with me, because being stuck with someone's fine hair just was always like, oh, boring, you're so limited. So I'd always take hairpieces. So I knew I knew the model or the talent actress had dark hair. So I just brought, brought some stuff in the car, so I went and got it and I had this little ponytail piece that went like that. So I literally just pinned it in, put her hair over it, did it all, did a wing line and done like an hour.
Speaker 2:And they came in all the ad agency, you know suits came in and went, but she looks just like the storyboard and I was like, oh, isn't it meant to be like that? I'm sorry, what have I done wrong? And they were like no, it's just that nobody ever gets it, like the reference, yeah. And I was like so, that's good. And they were like that's amazing. And I was like, okay.
Speaker 2:And then I learned how to be on set by being on set. No one taught me, I just was there going oh, I'm in the way. Oh right, don't stand in front of the light. Right, don't touch anyone else's stuff. Right, don't sit on that box because they're about to open it with lenses in it or you know all of that stuff I just learned by being on set. And it was okay in the 90s because, you know, and I was in Brisbane and it was much more relaxed. So I got to learn everything without it being dramatic, yeah, yeah. And then they just put me on TV commercials and I was doing still shoots and it just kind of word of mouth, yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, one thing came after another. Yep, awesome.
Speaker 2:Yeah, when is?
Speaker 1:this Was this the still. This is the 90s. Still, yeah, late 90s, yep, yep, yeah. And so were you hairdressing at all then? Were you in a salon at all?
Speaker 2:No, I probably did about one year in Vogue National Okay, two days a week and then I just stopped. I still was, actually I still was. I had kind of set up a little like home salon underneath my house, like in a little room with a little basin and one chair just for old clients who wouldn't go away and friends and I would still do like haircuts and colors and stuff because I enjoyed it. I just didn't want to be in a salon all the time. Yeah, yeah, so that was fun.
Speaker 2:So I was doing haircuts and colors, I was doing TV commercials, music videos, I'd do days on film and when I say days on film, I never did a full film because I didn't want to lose my short form clients yeah, so I would go and do additional days. Yeah, yeah, so just extras and my dad's cousin, so she's his age, so she's like in her late 70s. Now Her name is Sashleymi or is Sashleymi she's still around and she was a hair and makeup artist on film and she worked on Australian film from Break and Morant right through. Like she is like staple old school If you talk to any of those older makeup artists in the film industry, the really established women who have been around for like ever. They know her Like she was so, so talented and she took me out on my first film and introduced me to lots of people and I just went out for a couple of days for free, you know, on different things, and just was like, yep, yep, yep, I'll work. And then they kind of worked out.
Speaker 2:I had skills, yeah, because Tognini's, you know, you know we were trained in everything like finger waves and pink curls were not a thing in the 90s. No, that was Nana hair. It was Nana hair so. But we were forced to do it. It was like you will be good at this and it was like why? And they were like do it. And so it was all the classics. We were like and in that training in salon, if we were learning finger waves, we would learn it for whatever a month on a Tuesday night after work and you would stay until you got it right. If that meant it was one in the morning and you were sitting on the floor crying, that was how long it took until you got to go home and after probably about a month of training on it, we would have an in salon exam.
Speaker 2:Oh my gosh, and if you failed it, you had one more chance. Yeah, and if you failed it again, you were fired.
Speaker 1:Really so you were. You just kept practicing.
Speaker 2:Yeah Well, there wasn't a oh, I'm not good at that, I won't do it. That didn't exist. It was like you will get good at it and you will work out why you're not good at it and you will just and it's. It's never anything except practice.
Speaker 1:Yeah, true.
Speaker 2:That's it, it's just practice. And so you know it's like driving, yeah, first you're terrible and your coordination is all off and you didn't allow you all over the place and after a while it's just second nature and so it was just practice. So I went into these film set moments and they'd go, oh, we need a pin curl or we need a broil cream quiff or we need it. And I'd be like, okay, because I could do it, and I didn't realize that other people didn't get trained like that. Yeah, yeah, because I just didn't really know. I guess I got a little hint of it at hairdressing college, so any of the older hairdressers will understand.
Speaker 2:But you used to go to TAFE one day a week, out of the salon. So I went on a Wednesday and you would be with whoever was at that stage in their apprenticeship, from whether they were a local, you know suburban nanosell on or top of your game, kind of you know whatever arty salon. So you were with everybody and I remember this. I had this teacher and she was teaching us. We'd already done, I had already done long hair layering in the salon. She wanted to teach us to do long hair layering by putting someone putting someone to her in a ponytail and cutting it off. Oh, and I was like I'm not doing because you had models who would come in and pay $20 for their cheap haircut at the college so you could have a real model to work on, right? So every week you'd have all these random people who wanted a cheap haircut and I was like I'm not doing that to that poor girl, why aren't you doing that? No, he was so angry at me that I wouldn't do this shit haircut. I was like I'm gonna do it the right way. It was like you're arrogant and I was like I don't think I am. I think I just don't want to give someone a lopsided haircut.
Speaker 2:But yeah, so I guess I kind of got a hint of the training that maybe everyone else got there, but I was just lucky, like every senior in our salon trained us. Okay, yeah, so you got all their different types of input right. So you've got people who only did really sleek, simple look. You've got people who liked sexy hair. You've got people who liked you know, angry, sharp, punk hair you know like. And so it was really you know across the board.
Speaker 2:And so once I went into film, I had quite a bit of time under my belt of doing makeup, but not on a film level, like you know. When you talk to the film makeup artist now and you know I never did special effects, I was a basic makeup artist really when it came to film. But at that stage the things I worked on doing extra is it was fine and I learned so much like. I learned things like oh, we're going to put conditioner in the edges of the hair to make them look sweaty because they're camping, and you know how do you make someone look tired or how do you make someone new.
Speaker 2:It was the opposite of what I learned, which was make people pretty at any cost. You know, do what you've got to do, whereas this is, oh no, this is a storyline, you know, and so it was a whole different one. I loved learning about that. But the minutiae of film, which is the in the hair side of it, that this is what the actress has, so this exact colour here needs to stay for three months, this exact wave where it hits that point of her face, is continuity. Everything is continuity. I was like yeah, call me.
Speaker 2:I just nah, I'm not interested in that. I want to do big bam fun. Go home, that's it. And so, kind of, by doing all of those different things, I worked out my you know my work personality, yeah, yeah, and I think you know everyone who ends up in this industry is completely different. People assume that everyone who's in makeup or hair are creatives, and they're not. Some people are incredibly analytical Yep. Some people are just pure creatives and can't organise their way out of a paper bag, yeah, and other people are a bit of both, and so it's only by doing stuff that you kind of really feel who you are and where you want to be Like.
Speaker 2:For me, I think working in a TV station doing people in two and a half seconds to get them on air, I'd be like, oh, I'd hate it. So I go and do random shoots where it's completely unwearable, it's completely ridiculous. I do a line down here and colour it in with hot pink and this bit yellow Yay, you know it's ridiculous, but that is really exciting to me. And then doing someone for a red carpet event where you're transforming someone, making them feel their best, and it's not. I want to look like myself. It's like I want to look like an alter ego of myself. I want to look absolutely transformed and fabulous. I'm like that's what excites me and so special effects. It's making someone ugly and dead and and yeah, I'm like, yeah, I think it's brilliant. I have so much respect for those make about as holy shit. They work hard and it is scientific.
Speaker 1:But, I don't want to do it? Yeah, I get you. I just want to make people look pretty too. Yeah, I get that. So when did you? What made you move to Sydney?
Speaker 2:Work, yeah. So I didn't move till I was 35. I was in Brisbane till I was 35. It was like a late move. I'm very much a family and friends person and so I didn't think I'd ever move, even though I wanted to. And I just got into a point where I was really I felt like I'd done everything I could do in Brisbane. I wasn't using my skills.
Speaker 2:I was working on TV commercials a lot and you know that's like, oh, make her look like a housewife, Make her look like she's at a backyard barbecue, Make her look like she's shopping in the supermarket. You know, you put mascara on someone and they go, oh, she looks too pretty, and you'll be like her hair looks too done. Okay, you know, and I just knew, with all my Tognini's training and my my taste of what I think is fun, I was like, oh, I'm bored. You know I'm bored, bored, bored, bored, bored. And I thought, oh, I'll go into party planning because that's fun. And I started kind of like working on doing a business, doing that because I was just like, well, there's nothing else. And then Ray Morris came to town. So Ray and I were friends from when we were apprentices. Well, I was an apprentice. She was not many people know this about her, but she was a hairdresser and a salon owner. So she had started her apprenticeship at some stupid age like 13 or 14, which was illegal, but she didn't tell them and so she started really early. And when I met her, she was being a model for our salon. We were doing a big hair show at Hair Expo and she was one of the models and so we met through that and remained friends. So I'd known her forever and ever and ever and I was I was bridesmaid for her, Like we we go way back, We've been through a lot together.
Speaker 2:And she came to Brisbane to do a show and it was like Sarah Murdock was the head model, it was my Grace Brothers thing at the time and she was like right, you know, it needs to. She's explaining this eye. It needs to be this shape. You know it's like this kind of shape in the, in the eyeshadow, it's this kind of finish on the skin. I want it to look like this Great. Okay, so I did it and she came up and went holy shit, you did it and I went.
Speaker 2:Yeah, she was like oh my God, I've been around Australia and I'm telling people what to do and they don't fucking listen and they give me something that's not the shape I asked for. You've given me exactly what I asked for and I was like maybe that's the hairdressing training when you have to really listen. And you're like you ask more questions because they say I want my head to be red. And you go, okay, now are we talking pillow box, like red, like a post box, or is this red? Yeah, Because people have got weird concepts of what color or what shape is or what eras are. You know, you ask more questions. So I think that really helped.
Speaker 2:And she was like what are you doing in Brisbane? Oh, my God, you need to be in Sydney. And I was like, oh yeah, I've been thinking about it. And she was just like no, you need to be in Sydney, you would work, blah, blah, blah, blah. So she rang me yeah, when she got home and went right, I'm thinking of buying an apartment. If I do, will you be my flatmate? Will you come down? And I was like I just went, yes, Because I thought it'll take her a year to find what she wants to buy and by then I'll have worked out if I want to do it or not, but I'll say yes so she doesn't get someone else and replace me. He rang me two weeks later and went, so I bought it Are you coming? And so I went, shit, Okay.
Speaker 2:And so I'd broken up with a partner, maybe like two or three months before. I had no reason not to, so I did and I moved down and she had already gone down to Melbourne to do vamp. So I moved into her apartment on my own and two days later, like she'd said, and come down and do Fashion Week with me. And I was like, okay, never done that before and like I'd been on hair teams for hair shows, but that's a bit different. And so I went on, was on her team for the Melbourne Fashion Festival and she then took me as her assistant on a lot of shoots in Sydney and so I'd just go and work for free and she would get me to do hair. And then she'd put me in front of all the best fashion photographers in the country and they'd be like Ray, this hair is great. And she goes, she did it, and they just look at me like who are you? Where the hell have you come from? Like, because you know, usually it's all the, the usual suspects, yeah. And I was like, oh, I've been working in Brisbane and they're like what? I'm like okay, yeah, judgment or what. But yeah, and so it was.
Speaker 2:It was actually quite funny that I went and interviewed with an agent. I took my book, my little book with all my Brisbane shots in it and I said, look, I know that you probably won't like the fashion, because a lot of it wasn't my styling by then. I was just doing hair and makeup. You won't like the fashion, you won't, maybe won't even like the models. You might not like the photographer, but I'd love you to look at just the hair and makeup so that you can see what I can do.
Speaker 2:And they go flick, flick, it's very Brisbane. Oh, it's a lot of color. Oh, who's this photographer? Oh, I don't like this. And I'd yeah, but do you like what I'm doing? They're like, yes, but the model, but the this? And I was like, and they went, we can't market it with this. I'm like, okay, and I'm like, yeah, no, you need to go and do a lot of work before we can even look at you. And I went, okay, and then Ray was taking me on jobs and I was just, you know, working for free, working for free, working for free for about three months and, you know, probably at the two month mark I was getting booked in my own right and I was working. And then the agency rang me and went we'd like to congratulate you, we'd like to sign you. I was like I'm really sorry, I've got my hands full of hair at the moment. I'm going to have to call you back. That was a really nice feeling.
Speaker 1:That would be great.
Speaker 2:Well, the thing that happened when I first moved to Sydney was I rang, there was a, there were two of the booking services that do film, yeah, and they just merged. So everyone in the film industry will know who that is. Anyway, I rang them and was like oh hi, you know, I've just moved down from Brisbane, I'm a hair and makeup artist. I'd love to talk to someone about going on your books. And they were like yeah, yeah, sweetie, we only take professionals. And I went yes, I'm clear on that, that's why I'm calling you. And she went look darling, there's really no point. And I went wow, that's really interesting, because you haven't asked me how long I've been in the industry, what my skills are, who I've worked with. You've asked me nothing. And she went fine, how long you've been in the industry? I went you know what you can hang up on us.
Speaker 2:But the thing is I'd kind of rung them because I thought I'll do TV commercials until I can kind of find my way into stills, into fashion, and I just went well, oh well, that's it. I don't want to do that. That's ridiculous, that attitude is ridiculous. And so I just put all my effort into fashion and you know, I was starving in the beginning, of course, but then, luckily for me, because I'd done so much training elsewhere and you know, a lot of people are like I just want to go to the top straightaway and I'm like, yeah, but there's this magic in being under the radar.
Speaker 2:I was in Brisbane, nobody had any idea I existed, nobody cared, brisbane was a non-event. And so I got to do all this training and learning on set and doing all my making all my mistakes, doing something ugly, not loving what I did, hey la la in private, and that, like, as such, I was still on paid jobs. But you know, it wasn't with the top people I wanted to work with in the country and I didn't even know who they were at that step I had no clue.
Speaker 2:I just want to do pretty pictures, you know, and I've always had a sense of, you know, wanting to be at the top of my field, but not really that that is where I'm going to be. I just, it was just like, just do better than yesterday. That was more what it was.
Speaker 1:When did you start entering like? Because you've got a lot of you know lists under your name before you're a major in that you've won.
Speaker 2:Okay, well, the interesting thing is yeah, years ago there wasn't make up awards to enter.
Speaker 2:No, yeah, yeah, there wasn't what the magazines would do and I think it was maybe Harper's and Vogue they would decide who the make up Australian make up artist of the year was based on the work that was out there, and so Ray won it like I don't know five, seven times, and so I wasn't out there. That wasn't a thing you know. And when I first moved to Sydney it was I think it was 2018. And about 2019, I think Hair Expo did their first session stylist of the year oh, was it in 2018?
Speaker 2:Yeah, oh, I thought, okay, it was late, it was a late edition because it wasn't really a thing in Australia. Yeah, okay, for a long time, you know. And so I entered that and I won it. Yeah, and then I entered next year and, like you know, the session stylist thing has been a part of my world since then. But, make up wise, the first time I entered anything was when the make up artist guild started, when Melanie Bernacol started the make up artist guild.
Speaker 2:Yeah, because she had seen, you know how much the hairdressing awards system and Hair Expo, the Australian Hair Fashion Awards, brings together the industry and even though hairdressers work in separate spaces, they all knew each other. Yeah, everyone was cross pollinated. You knew everyone from other salons, you knew everyone from other product companies because of that, and she was like make up artists have nothing. We're all these little lone travelers and we're all freaking out that we're either not charging the right amount, someone else is undercutting us, we're not doing the right job, we're not using the right products. You know, and the only time you ever got to really compare was when you worked on fashion shows together, you know, or film, but they were very separate industries back in the day. You know, if you like, they were the same set of skills, set of skills put to use in very different ways. So if you're at the top of your game in film, no one in fashion thought you were worth anything. If you're at the top of your game in fashion, no one in TV thought you were worth anything Because you did it that style, yeah, like.
Speaker 2:I remember working on TV commercials in Brisbane and they, like one of these production companies or one of the directors, actually told me this story that a fashion make up artist from Sydney had done a TV commercial for him and he was like oh so she looks a bit dead, can you just give her a bit of color in her cheeks? And this make up artist went oh, I'm sorry, we're not doing Rouge this season. Oh, and he just went you're putting blush on her cheeks because she looks dead. And she went no, because it's not. And he went make her look not dead. And he was outraged that she was trying to tell him what to do, because that's not how that works in that industry.
Speaker 2:Right, but in fashion your voice does count in that you're working with the stylist, with the fashion editor, to go, hey, how about this? Because so-and-so did this on the runway and it was amazing. You're bringing ideas in film and fashion. Well, unless you're the head of the department, yeah, and it's a pre-production meeting, but on the day you have no voice, zero, zero, zero voice. And so, yeah, like it was really interesting sort of seeing the difference between that.
Speaker 2:And as it kind of got up into my time in Sydney, it started melding more once the makeup artist Guild came in, because, you know, I knew some of the film girls and some of the TV girls because I'd worked in it before and because of the hair link, yeah, I get pulled in to do hair on different things and I'd meet a lot of makeup artists that way. But yeah, so that's where the awards in makeup started was with that, ok, yeah, which was amazing because it gave everyone a voice. You know, it gave girls who were doing bridal, yeah something to, you know, be able to showcase their work and then take to their clients going. Hey, I got an award for my work. It gave girls who are working and boys and they's and everybody.
Speaker 2:You know, I just think I say girls because I'm a girl, you know but it gave everyone who was working in film something to enter in music videos, in fashion, in bridal, in all of those industries that previously had looked at each other going. I don't like the way they do that. I don't like the way they do that, Like fashion would look at bridal and go, you know, film would look at fashion, but ridiculous, like they don't even know anything. You know so, and it just helped to bring us a little bit more together.
Speaker 1:Yeah, now I feel like I've skipped lots of years from there to there, so you ended up with an agent.
Speaker 2:Yes, yes, so I had an agent after about three months of being in the team and then just started doing editorial print advertising.
Speaker 1:So it all just sort of took off from there. Yeah yeah, were you specializing in just hair there? Is that what you were?
Speaker 2:doing. Well, they marketed hair on the agency website, but I still did makeup. Ok, there were a lot of advertising things that I would just do makeup. They'd go, oh yeah, yeah, she can do makeup. And at that time, advertising you were just like you know, as long as your book was decent, you were like you know, you could do makeup, you know really. But they were more interested. It was harder to find great hair people. Yeah, you know, I mean, there were still a lot of great hairdressers, just not as many, yeah, as there were great makeup artists.
Speaker 1:Because a lot wouldn't sell, unlike you mentioned earlier.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, exactly so when did it, when did you start directing there?
Speaker 2:So I was on Ray's team, yeah, the Melbourne Fashion Festival until like right through the L'Oreal days, and then, when they let it go, the price line came on, and then price line actually asked her to do it for them in their own right. So she ended up back at Vant. I think there was one year that somebody else did it and then she was back, and then Ray was releasing her brushes, or her brushes were out, her brushes were out, but she wanted to put them into Mecca. So that was a clash of issues and so she left price line and they were like we want you. And I was like, ok, amazing. And so that was part of Vant. Yeah, because they were the major fashion sorry, the major beauty sponsor. And so then I was heading up the, the makeup team, yeah, for maybe two years, and then I got signed as the hair person with price line as well. So then for two years I headed up the makeup team and the hair team at the same time, because I think I was did I do both of those?
Speaker 1:I can't both the hair and makeup. I think you did Because I they were just like blend in, don't they? Because the last one was the one just as COVID.
Speaker 2:Yes, so we got about three days out of five. I think we got under our belts before it got shut down?
Speaker 1:Yes, it did get shut down. Yeah, so can you just talk me through the process of coming up with the looks For the fashion festival?
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, well, I think it's. It's definitely a combination of the the stylist, because with Melbourne Fashion Festival, it's not one designer Designer, yeah, they're. You know. Often they were sponsored by Harper's or Vogue or you know a magazine. There was always one major Australian designer show, but there were always stylists who were the head of putting it all together.
Speaker 2:Now, because those shows had a lot of different looks, it wasn't a designer saying this season I'm doing blah, you know this colorway or you know this style. It meant that a lot of the looks had to really go across multiple outfits. So often there'd be two looks, you know, and there'd be, say, 40 models and 20 of them would have one look, 20 would have another look, and that would often be divided up not by their face but by what outfits they were wearing, what sections they were in, and the process of that was the stylist would have found references that they loved. I would have found reference that I've loved, and it was often. You know what's happening in fashion, what's happening on the New York runway, what's happening in Paris, what's happening in Milan, who did this, I, who did that, who did this look in, you know, vogue, portugal, or you know, and so we'd pull from all those references and then look at it with all of the clothes, how the runway was going to be set up, what the lighting was going to be like, and we would do trials. So you go in and we'd trial it on, make models, we'd shoot it and then the stylist would be like no, I don't like that color, I don't think that's going to work.
Speaker 2:Now I've done the styling. Maybe it needs to be green. You know, it might be a green, big green, metallic winged liner instead of blue. Great done, you know. And then you know, you could tweak it a bit depending on what skin color you had in front of you. Like, you know, a metallic green usually looks good on pretty much everyone. It's amazing on someone porcelain, and it's amazing on someone south Sudanese, you know. But with other things you'd be like, oh, it's a nude lip, ok, so we're going to tweak that for the Indian girls, the African girls, the tan, you know, aussie looking girls. And then you know, and tweak it for the porcelain skin. So that was kind of the process.
Speaker 1:With that process, do you think? I suppose, if there's someone out there listening and they want to, you know that's the goal of theirs is to direct a show. Yeah, you know, I guess maybe once upon a time I thought, you know, you just had to be like really creative and you know, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. But there seems like there's a lot. There's an element of it which is really being a great communicator, being easy to work with, yeah, and all those things, yeah, and all those sorts of things.
Speaker 2:Again, it's that you do have to be really creative. Yeah, you have to have these other skill sets. It's like you're constantly adding strings to your bow, as they used to say Mm-hmm. So what I would do is I would take detailed pictures, photographs at the trial, mm-hmm. I would write very detailed instructions, mm-hmm, and I would print them out for every person on the team.
Speaker 2:Yeah, because my mum being a teacher and you know, having, you know, gone to school, obviously I kind of understood that everyone's learning style is different, mm-hmm. So you're either I mean, I can't remember the terms, but audio, you know, visual or kinetic learner, which means you know, when you were in front of a classroom, your teacher would say it to you, they'd write it on the board or have a you know projector with it up there and they would make you write it down. Yeah, so if you were visual, you saw it. If you were audio, you heard them saying it, and if you were kinetic, you wrote it down and it went into your brain.
Speaker 2:So, you know, I thought, okay, I've got to, I've got to capture everybody here. So I would do the photos, I would do the written and I would talk it through in front of people and, if need be, I would show them on a model, and then you know that seemed to capture everybody. So that's the communication thing. Yeah, so understanding how to package what you need to communicate to everybody. You know, from someone who's been hairdressing six years and they're not confident, to someone who's been oh sorry makeuping for six years and not confident. To someone who's been doing makeup for 30 years but you want them to not do their automatic style.
Speaker 1:Yes, yeah, you know, mm-hmm.
Speaker 2:So your approach, because all of those looks needed to come through me. They needed to come past me, show me their model. And I needed to kind of tick it off because, at the end of the day, that stylist who was in charge of the entire show would be screaming at me if they didn't like how a model looked. So it had to be like no, no, I know what they're after, I know what we've decided. I need to make sure that you have created what I wanted, like when Ray was like oh my God, you got the shape. Yes, I would come on and come past me and I'd be like right, look at me. And I'd get the girls like how do you walk? And like they go, oh yeah, I do this, you know, and you go, okay.
Speaker 2:So if it was a winged liner and they walked like that, getting it in a shape was different to if they walked like that. Yeah for sure. And suddenly it had disappeared and you wanted it lifted, you know, mm-hmm. So that was you know, and being able to say to people this is beautiful, that's beautiful, yes, but can you just a little bit? You know, rather than oh my God, that's not right you know, or whatever, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, because we're all delicate, we are Absolutely.
Speaker 2:Of course you're putting your soul out there, you know your work and you know you're hoping to that everyone. You do it in front of whether it's the client and it's their wedding, through to a client and it's their product, and you're doing advertising through to. You know someone at the head of a team. You want them to love it and go. You're the best. You're the best, you know. Yeah.
Speaker 1:And what about when it comes to selecting your team, because I know I've had questions like that in the past. Yeah, do you talk me through that process?
Speaker 2:Well, for me it was easy. Yeah, I had been on RAISE team for nine years, mm-hmm, and that team that people had kind of come in and out, come in and out, but it was this base team. We had been all working together for 10 years, mm-hmm. And what I learned through that process is it's a bit like a hairdressing salon, yeah, where if you have one wrong personality it can kill it. And it's personality Because most people, even if they're not really great at particular skills, will get carried along by the group if there's good personalities, because the person beside them will go try this product, yeah, or just blend that out a bit, you know or they'll go can you look at my model?
Speaker 2:And they go, yeah, but I think she wants a bit more gleam on the lead, and they go thanks, thanks, yeah. And so for me it was a no brainer, like a lot of the time. You see, you know, when people go in for a job, whether it's a corporate job or they're the new editor of magazine, they will kill everything and start again with their own vibe. Yeah, true, because they're like I want to show how I'm better at it than everybody, whereas for me I went, I don't need to do that. I don't have that ego. I mean, everyone's got ego, for sure.
Speaker 2:But I was like I don't need to put my own mark on this. And I said to the whole team I said, look, if it's not broken, don't fix it. I love you all. All your work is great. We work so well together. If you would love to come back with me at the helm, I would be honored to have you. And they all said yes and I was like whoopie. And so then there were all of these wonderful makeup artists out in the industry going hey is, can I be in a team? And I was like sorry, it's chosen. And that was why, because who do I get rid of?
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Who do I say sorry, you're not coming this year because some other person who I've never met, who I've never seen the work of, wants to get in. And I was like I'm sure they're great, but it was a tried and tested thing, and especially once I started taking over the hair team as well. That was a lot and at the time there were 14 makeup artists on the makeup team and maybe 20 hairdressers and a lot of those hairdressers In the first year they were new every day.
Speaker 1:Yeah, there was some newbies, wasn't there?
Speaker 2:Yeah, there weren't people I'd ever worked with and they weren't people who'd ever worked on a team together. Yeah, and some of them had never worked on a fashion show before, mmm. And so salon timing and fashion show timing are very different things. Salon finish and fashion show finish are very different things.
Speaker 2:And so I really needed to put a lot of time into the hair team, yeah. But I could walk away from that makeup team and say here's the look, here's what I want, Bring them past me. And I could walk away because I knew that they were all amazing. None of them had egos. They were proud, but they didn't have egos. They were like what do you want? What can I do for you? Can I help? You know? Is this good enough? Do you like that? And I'd be like, oh, lift that eyeliner. And I, by that stage, we'd worked together for 12, 13 years and I didn't have to go oh sweetie, that's really lovely and you've done such a good job, but could you just lift the eyeliner? I could say to them lift that eyeliner. Great, yeah, Bring it back.
Speaker 2:Yeah, because I was like and it worked and so so it wasn't. I wasn't in a position to bring in really very many new people, which was Obama, because there's so many people who would have loved to be on it and it would have. They would have just flown and gotten so much good experience and you know all of that kind of stuff, but we were just having too much fun together.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I do remember actually one of the shows, that one of the hair shows sorry, one of the shows and with the hair, where it was like a runway and I think Rissis Swan was there and there was a lot of yeah. Maybe not people who were necessarily models, but were just personalities, that was put on by Priceline.
Speaker 2:Yes, that's right, and they called it the Priceline Funway instead of. Runway. Yeah, and it was all about female empowerment.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and the hair was so fun and like we had, you know, because hair could sometimes not be fun like to do on a fashion show, it's like we love her natural wave, just live her as she is. I hear you or is, but he has a sleek ponytail. Yeah, whereas with that show I remember I was doing some space buns on someone and then I think you know there was like a fun ponytail with a hairpiece, and you were just so organized.
Speaker 1:You had all these little bags for everyone and I was just like, oh my gosh, it was fun it was fun.
Speaker 2:Okay, so the way that that show was so different from every fashion show was that every person on that runway was in a black suit. Yes, they were. They'd had a custom made black suit by Effie Katz, yeah, yeah, but for their taste. So there were slouchy suits, there were cropped things, there were you know everything different, but it was all black. It was about Priceline, which was hair and makeup, and so the hair and makeup were the star. Yeah, and because every one of those people whether they were actresses, personalities, comedians, radio people, like they were, you know, instagrammers who had a huge following, they were musicians they all had their own personality. Yeah, and so I devised looks for them. I just designed what I thought would be fun. That was hair and makeup heavy. Yeah, that was so fun.
Speaker 2:So it was like colored eyeliners, colored lips, jewels on their face, you know, just color, color, color, color looks, you know, big, amazing. And then, if they weren't a big makeupy person, they'd have a hair, hair look like with a capital H. And so, you know, it was about sending them out there, thinking, oh, my God, I have more hair than God. I have never looked like this. I have loving myself sick, you know. And it was really fun. So I would go to them with this is my thoughts for you, references, ideas, and they'd be like, okay, yeah, and I go, and they, or some of them, would go, oh, I don't really feel comfortable with that. Okay, like any client. Okay, Well, what about this? And you know, then, some of them, you could talk them up, you know and go come on, look at what everybody else is doing.
Speaker 2:This is your one chance. This is not you going to like a red carpet where it's about you. This is about the hair and makeup and everyone on that runway is going to look mad and they go. Okay. And then they later. They're like so glad I did that. So that was the most fun one I think I've ever done, yeah.
Speaker 1:Because it was all about us. Yeah, it was heaps of fun. Yeah, yeah, love that, love that. And what about now? You used to do I don't know if you still do actually haven't seen anything out for a while. I can't remember the photographer, is it Sinclair?
Speaker 2:Oh, alexia Sinclair, yes, those incredible photo shoots that you used to do, yeah, so I've just worked on another series with her. Oh really, it's been five years in the making, because COVID kind of knocked the.
Speaker 2:You know COVID kind of knocked everything sideways and et cetera, and she has a young child, so she was a bit busy. But we have been shooting along the way. There's something we shot like three, four years ago that haven't been released yet. That I'm desperate to have out because they're really fun and very exciting people in them as subjects. So that's fun. You'll find out someday. But yeah, so she is.
Speaker 2:For the people who haven't seen her work, she's like think period period film. But, like you know, when you go into a museum and you see a huge portrait that is historical, like it might be Napoleon on a horse rearing over the people that he's won the battle from in those kind of paintings, the court paintings, the court painter's job really, from my limited art history experience, which is very limited, but they would layer all of this symbolism into these paintings, right. So just say it was a woman on a chair and you know like she had a child and a dog and there might be, you know, fruit that's falling off the table and those fruits would mean certain things. The flowers would mean certain things. Everything had a symbol about what they were saying in this piece of art. So I feel like Alexia Sinclair is like a court painter reincarnated who uses photography and Photoshop Yep, so a lot of what we do she creates in camera, which is amazing, which means she builds sets herself, she sows costumes herself, she photographs it herself, she retouches it herself, like she is one of those multi-disciplinary artists. She's just one of a kind Like. I don't know anyone else like her. A lot of people have copied her, which is incredibly frustrating, but you know, she's just. Her brain is amazing, the way she thinks.
Speaker 2:And so we got introduced by. There was a girl who was assisting me years ago and she said oh, I've got this photographer friend, she does this amazing stuff. You two need to meet. Blah, blah, blah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And so we went to a cafe and met her and I was seeing her work going. Oh, my God, this is really fun, this is amazing. And she was just like yeah, well, I just get you know, the makeup artist to do a little something on the hair, like a little twist or something. And then I illustrated into whatever I needed to be in Photoshop. I totally painted in and I was like, oh, I can build that. She was like, what Like? And I was like no, no, you draw me a picture, sketch me something and I can build it.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:She went like that big and I went, yeah, I went, you can give me the Eiffel Tower. I'll make the Eiffel Tower on her head if you need me to. She just was like what? And I was like, literally, if you can draw it, I can build it. Yeah, it might take me a minute, but I can do it. And she went. She went, okay, and she, she was so excited, oh my God, and she started walking backwards and almost walked into her bus, almost got hit by a bus and we still laugh about that, that she was so excited when we met that she almost died, yeah, but yeah, so we've worked together for, oh, I think it might be 14 years now. Oh, really, yeah, and you know she does a lot of a lot of what people remember that we've done together is like Marianne Twinet style thing.
Speaker 1:Yes.
Speaker 2:You know the Rococo era, that kind of thing, you know, because it's really memorable, those things are so beautiful. But I think one of my favourites with her was for the New Zealand Opera and it was for their production of Macbeth and it was this huge like portrait of. If anyone remembers Macbeth when you did it at school, it was about, you know, the three witches, Boyleboildub, you know double toil and trouble, all of that. And Lady Macbeth goes to the witches kind of for a reading because she wants her husband to be king and they tell her he will be king, blah, blah, blah. But she's, she doesn't have patience. So she kills the king, she murders him and he haunts her. And so that's where it's that play, where Outdam's spot comes from, because she's in her dreams trying to wash the blood from her hands and it won't come off because she's so guilty. So this image ended up being Lady Macbeth in this white nightgown, like just a sling that.
Speaker 1:That's my favourite one.
Speaker 2:Oh, it's so good. Yes, and King Duncan, with this little ghost image of him going like this to her, like kind of going why have you killed me? And she's like hold it back. And she's got this red fabric coming off her hands which is like symbolic of the blood, and I wanted to do this big hair almost look like blowing back from her face like a dream scape like this, like in a in a wind tunnel, because you know, with hair in a wind tunnel, only the front bits go right, the centre is down. But I was like no, so it needs to be ridiculous. And so I built this cantilevered hair side on, huge, and it was really heavy, but it wasn't hurting, but it was just heavy. In the model it was like it's really heavy. I was like is it hurting? Is it hurting anywhere? Because I, you know you can't get anything good out of a model in a photo shoot if their hair hurts. Yeah, so I'm always like tell me where the pin hurts and I will move it. You know she was like no, it's not hurting, it's just heavy.
Speaker 2:I took her through to the bathroom and I went. So you have to be side on and look in the mirror like this, to see it, and she went, oh, oh, I fine. And then she was like on, she was loving it and she could deal with it. Yeah, and it was the most amazing shoot. Yeah, like there's something special happened that day. Like I was in the in the room because I needed to just keep an eye on the hair and makeup but I was hiding behind Alexia. She went everyone else out because she wanted to get this mood and that man who was old, I'd laid on like white beard and gray hair and, you know, laid on a whole beard. That was like spindly and flying in the wind and almost like I didn't do hair here, I did all around here and flying.
Speaker 2:It was amazing he was a I think he was like 70s or early 80s and he was an actor, like an amateur actor, so it was the favorite thing he ever did in his life, really, because it ended up on these huge billboards and he was so proud of it. And he was coaching this model, this young 19 year old girl who knew nothing about the world. You know, she'd never read Macbeth, she didn't know. So he's explaining to her and, being this thespian, and the thing that happened was her grandfather had died very recently and she was very close to him and so once they're on set, she needed this tension in her arms to kind of push him away. And he's doing this.
Speaker 2:But he was talking under his breath to her and just looking her right in the eyes, going, why did you kill me? Why did you kill me? And she was just like she was so emotional and we and Alexia caught it and we were all bawling our eyes out watching this shot being taken. It's the most amazing thing and so it's my favorite for so many reasons because, number one, it was kind of one of those big cantilevered styles. I got to do where I got I can, I get to use my skills and it was a commercial job. We actually got paid. Yeah, you know when you do your favorite work and it's the unpaid work, and it was such an incredible experience shooting it and it ended up on billboards all around New Zealand, which was fun.
Speaker 1:That was my favorite one. I couldn't, I just knew it had the white hair and it was beautiful.
Speaker 2:So yeah, that was an experience.
Speaker 1:Yeah, other new, other like next ones with her. If they got some fun hair in them, can you tell?
Speaker 2:me. Yes, I guess I can't tell you anything, she's madly.
Speaker 1:That's okay. Oh, I don't ask anymore. Now, when you do your collections for awards, yes, how long is the process from? Like? Well, see, it's different.
Speaker 2:Okay, so I'm not a salon hairdresser. Yeah, so I'm not entering New South Wales head of the year. I'm not entering Australia in head of the year, so I don't have to shoot a collection.
Speaker 1:Oh, okay, so it's just what you've not just.
Speaker 2:Session stylist of the year has to be work you've done throughout the year.
Speaker 2:Oh, it has to have to be published, oh so you had to prove it was published like out of in the in the beginning of it with AHAF and hair expo six images and out of those six images five had to have been published work, so you couldn't call yourself an editorial stylist. A lot of people do now. A lot of people like I'm an editorial stylist and you're like you're not. You take photos of hair, that's fine, but you're like an editorial stylist was the meaning of that has gotten lost in the last you know five, 10 years. You know it was. You worked on magazines and runway shows. That was editorial, yeah. Well, editorial was actually magazines, yeah, but a session stylist was that. You worked on runway shows and editorial shoots.
Speaker 1:Okay, I didn't know that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, the sideline of that was print advertising. Okay, so it all had to be work that you'd done throughout the year.
Speaker 1:Okay, so there wasn't ever. Have you ever, have you ever shot collections before I?
Speaker 2:did one once and then went, oh, I mean, oh, I did them for apprentice of the year, I'm back in the day, yeah, and I enjoyed it then, yeah, but you know, I think I mean it would be really fun to do, but I just feel like and I've been, I've been encouraged to enter, like hairdresser's year and stuff like that, but I just feel like it's not my section. Yeah, okay, I feel like that's a salon hairdresser section and it should be for them. Yeah, I understand I don't need to do everything. You know what I mean. I'm just a little mitts in everywhere. I just I just you know, that's that's. I have a lot of respect for salon hairdressers. They work their. Oh my God, it climbs off, it is the hardest work. Oh, that's why I'm not in there. It's hard, it's hard, it's hard, it's hard.
Speaker 1:You know it really is hard on your body Now, your fabulous ponytail oh yeah. You know what I'm talking about. What I'm talking about.
Speaker 2:I started calling them power pony and then everybody started calling it that. I'm like I'm gonna get that first.
Speaker 1:I love all of those fabulous sort of hairstyles that come about.
Speaker 2:It came about on a TV commercial. Okay, so I was doing a TV show. I can't remember the product, but Olivia Molly Rogers was the model, she was the talent on the, and so she was Miss World Australia or I get mixed up with all the problems.
Speaker 2:Miss Australia, she was something, some fabulous beauty queen winner. She's a delight, she's divine and so beautiful. Yeah, she had kind of bob-ish length hair, yep, and the director, who was someone I'd worked with for years and years and years in Brisbane, he was like, oh, I want her doing this in this where we had maybe five looks over the day. So it was a busy, busy, busy day. Was it TVC or it was a TVC? Okay, yeah, and he went at one one of them, I want her running through the field with a ponytail flying in the air. And I was like I want her going, ponytail is going to be this long Flying through the air. And I was like, of course I had blonde hair in my car and so I just added 75,000 kilos of hair into her head and tied it in so that she could run and it could fly, and it was probably about that long.
Speaker 2:The first one, like a little flicky, okay, and I went oh my God, that looked amazing. And you know, with TV commercials and film, like it has to be bigger than Ben Hurford to register, yeah, especially when it's a wide shot of someone running through a field, like if it's a normal size ponytail. It looks like a 12 year old's little tiny nothing. You know, like you kind of do that with hair and look it's nothing yeah you lose it all Like it's gone.
Speaker 2:That's not going to register well on screen. So I was like, oh, I'm going to have to add loads of hair, and that's where it kind of started. And then and then I did it on a wedding planner Her name's Georgie. She has a wedding planning business called After the Rock, and she was like I want a giant ponytail. And I was like, oh, I know just how to do that for you. And I gave her a power pony on a trial. She was like, oh yes. And she was like this is amazing. And so we did her hair down for her ceremony and then up in this power pony. I put it in just before she walked into the reception and every I actually heard her walk in, everybody screamed Like all of her guests were like, and I was like, ok, that went down well.
Speaker 2:And then she put up photos and every second bride I did after that wanted that combo down for the ceremony up in this power pony and so I just started doing big ponytails, yeah, and they just shoot so beautifully and they tend to make everyone look good because it makes your face look petite, because your hair is bigger than Ben's.
Speaker 2:Oh, that's great, because most people you do this, they look like a deep sea racing, mullet, you know, like racing, whereas if you've got like big hair like that, even if they're really round, or you know a ponytail doesn't often suit them, or they have thin hair, all of those combos you can make them kind of look good because you've just added a heap of hair in and given that angle, you know, like that placement of the pony and suddenly you know all this.
Speaker 2:So the way I describe it with hair and you know when you're trying to talk a client into it is, I'm like, wherever the widest point of your hair is, draw your eyes. So if my hair is, my widest point is kind of here, you know, you look here, right, and it makes me look quite square across and blah, blah, blah. But as soon as you do that, I'm not square at all, no, and you don't even notice under there. You look here, you can see that, and as soon as you do that, you start looking here again, and so when you're bringing the attention up to cheekbones and eyes with a pony, everyone looks good.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:And I suppose you just everyone would have seen it on with social media and stuff, you just got more and more.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and then, you know, I ended up doing it. So often I was like I can't post all of these videos. It's actually ridiculous. It looks like all I can do is a ponytail. And so it's funny with social media, right? Because I feel like the people who did really well on social media were the ones who did one look 57,000 times. Yeah, Like they might do like a brown eye. Yeah, like 750 versions. Or they might do a bun, a wave and a ponytail and 750 versions. And, like you know, you get the general public following you.
Speaker 2:I never wanted to do that. I'm like I'm an artist at heart, so I put in weird ugly shit as well as pretty people stuff. You know, like I put in stupid avant-garde hair, weird makeup. That's ridiculous. You know, like just stupid stuff. That's just creative. For the sake of art and my clients, who are normal people, they will show me that on my Instagram. I'm going don't make me look like that. I go. I know it's okay, you know, but then you start.
Speaker 2:I always thought put the work out there that you want to get, yeah, so if all I was putting out there was beach waves and, and you know, bridal looks, that's all I get and I'm like boring. You know I want to be doing all of it and so that's why I still do a bit of bridal. I still do personal clients, you know, going to their party. You know I still do TV commercials, I still do music videos, even though in this country they pay $2.50. But they're fun, right Every now and then.
Speaker 2:I probably want to do one about once every three years because it's a 22 hour day and you just want to cut your own head off by the end of it, but it's fun. And then, you know, I do editorial and I do advertising, like everything, so that you know, and I put it all on my, on my page because I want whatever that client is, whether they're an advertiser or someone you know, going to their you know I don't know birthday party and they want to look like Barbie or someone doing an avant-garde shoot for something. You know they all can find something on there, yeah, but they go. Oh, they can do it Like. I remember one day and I know this is this conversation, it's a makeup inside it, but it's kind of gotten a bit heavy.
Speaker 2:That's okay, oh good, sorry about that, but I remember one time I had a call from my agent going hey, this client you know want to book you for this job, but they need to see some references of ponytails that you've done. So I'm with Okay, and this was before I'd done a powerpoint. They think I can't do a ponytail With all that hair that's up there. They think I can't do a ponytail and they just really need to know.
Speaker 1:Oh, so they need to see the specific thing they're looking for.
Speaker 2:Yep, no imagination, okay. And so I sent through 42 images of different shoots, all different shapes, textures, finishes of ponytail, and I was like there you go. And my agent just laughed. She was like that is hilarious. I went. If they can't find what they want in there, then good luck to them. Yeah, yeah, but yeah. So I think that really, you know, and normal people, right? So clients who are the owner of a company who is doing advertising, mm-hmm, like ad agency, people have mostly imaginations.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:But the clients don't. No, the personal clients don't, because they probably work in an office or they're a sport teacher or they're whatever. So they need to. They're mimics. They need to be able to mimic something they've seen, mm-hmm. That's why brides all end up looking the same Mm-hmm. Because they go, oh, I like what she did, mm-hmm, I want her dress and her hair and her jewelry, you know, whereas the creatives want to do something they've never seen before.
Speaker 1:Yeah Fun.
Speaker 2:So I kind of try and put a bit of everything in there so that everybody who has no creativity, no one, everyone's creative.
Speaker 1:But you know what I mean. Yeah, yeah, no, I know what I mean.
Speaker 2:They can't like think of it if they can't see it exactly, mm-hmm. I try and put things out there that you know, so I get all of that work. Yeah, yeah, because I don't want to do only editorial. Yeah, because trying to come up with those creative ideas all the time is tiring. Yeah, I don't want to do only TV commercials, because only doing making people look real or making people you know, and standing on set with gaffers and grips all day, that's like it's fun.
Speaker 2:You know, but, and I used to do it full time and then I was like okay, I'm done now.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And I don't want to just do people real people going to their, their own events, because that has an emotional weight to it. Where you're, you're dealing with people's personal insecurities about what they look like, which are usually unfounded, mm-hmm. So you're trying to like deal with something that you go. It's not a thing, mm-hmm, you don't have a fat face, mm-hmm, you know, or whatever it is, and so all of those things have their own challenges, which I love, but I don't want to do only that all the time. So to mix it up means that you know you're using different parts of your skill set all the time, one after the other, and you never get burnt out.
Speaker 1:Yeah, Now, how did you start working with Jamie Jamie? Is it Jamie Kennedy?
Speaker 2:Oh yeah, Because you've done some fun stuff with her. She is a. She is a creative unicorn. Yeah, I've never had anyone like her before, really.
Speaker 1:As as a like personal client.
Speaker 2:I don't think many people would have a personal client like her. No, the combination of things that she is is so rare that I would call her unique. Yep, so um. It was on a uh, an ad job for Kennedy, which is their jewelry company. They, you know, have Rolex and Graf Domino, all of that. They bring all of that in, and she was being the model. Oh, yeah, so um, her, it was her boyfriend at the time. Yeah, um had wanted her to be the face of the company and so she was being the model and she wasn't a professional model.
Speaker 2:She was, you know, stunning, but you know she wasn't working as a professional model, but she was in, like I think we did seven different looks and it was all really creative, full on looks, and so she was nervous, you know, because it was like a whole thing. She was on this huge professional shoot with all of this pressure to carry these. I think we're working you too, yeah, you know, when you perform, Yep, yep. And so there was someone doing makeup and I was just doing hair and I was just trying to take care of her because I was like, oh, you're a cool little thing Like this is really. This is big, you know, and I mean, you know we take care of models like that all the time. We're always the one in there touching the mic, going you okay, Do you need anything? Yeah, all right, don't worry about them, don't listen to them. You know, we're always the ones like taking care of people on set and socializing care of up. And you know, she called me and said I need to do this photo shoot. I'd like you to do my hair for me. I was like, oh great, I'd love to.
Speaker 2:And when I got there, it was in Melbourne. When I got there, it was. They were it was a you know NDA like don't say anything. And they were launching that they were going to sponsor the races in Melbourne, sponsor Oak State, yeah, and so she had she'd done a makeup course. She she, years ago she'd trained in makeup, so she'd done her own makeup and I'd done her hair.
Speaker 2:And then I was like, can I just tweak this? I just think if you did a little bit. And I did a few clicks and she was like, oh, that's really good, you know. And she was like do you make up as well? I was like, yeah, and I was showing her stuff and she was like, oh, wow, okay, she went, maybe we should get you to do me for the races, because we're sponsoring, we're going to have to, you know, be what do you call it? Hosting a marquee. And I was like, and she went, but you'd have to come to Melbourne for like the whole week. And I was like, yeah, and that's where it all began, I'd love it. And so, yeah, that was the the you know, two photo shoots and then I did her for the races and she so the reason I call her a unicorn. She has great taste. Yeah, not many people have that.
Speaker 1:Let's be honest.
Speaker 2:She doesn't have a stylist. She styles herself. Oh, okay, they're all her own clothes. She buys all her own clothes. There's nothing, none of this. Oh, you've been loaned this, so you have to wear it, even if it doesn't suit you. She styles herself and she has epic taste. She's really interested in fashion, so she understands references, she understands fashion history, she's into it. You, know, and she loves a dress up. She doesn't want to look like everybody else.
Speaker 2:She doesn't want to be, you know, looking like all the Sydney girls with their I'm not trying too hard.
Speaker 2:I haven't had to fit here so that I don't look like I bothered. She's like let's do a look. What about that look that was on this 1997 runway from Chanel. Should we try that? You know, yeah, and like I would come to her with ideas, she would have ideas, we'd go, you know. But I think we just have the same taste and that's where it all comes together, because everything I've done on her and I'm talking photo shoots, race wear, and we do nine events in 11 days with the races, that's a lot, isn't it? Going to all the Dolce shows, and that's five to seven days of events Her wedding, her birthday parties, like all of those varied looks.
Speaker 2:She and I do her hair and her makeup. I swear to you she has never once said to me oh, could you just, oh, could I? Just, I don't quite like, never, never. Wow, she goes, I love it and you go, okay, yeah, I love it too, yeah, and she just, she often will say to me I don't want to get in the way of the creative process and I'm like you, that's like angels. That's why I call her angel face Number one, because she has an angel face. Yeah, number two, because it's like you know to do these beautiful looks on a beautiful human who has style and taste and goes to events where you can wear these looks and she never wants to change it and she loves it and I'm like, oh, it's like the angel scene.
Speaker 1:Do you? Does she give you sort of a rundown of what she's wearing every day, and then you come up with the looks.
Speaker 2:Okay, Sometimes we don't know. Sometimes it's a last minute, you know, sometimes it's like she'll send me a photo of an outfit, and sometimes it's a last minute thing where you go, oh, it didn't come back from the tailor, oh, it's not, like they didn't get it finished in time, you know, like getting it fitted or whatever, and now we're wearing something that's in your wardrobe, you know, which is an entirely different style, taste, color and vibe, you know, and so I, just like you know, you learn on photo shoots you kind of take a bit of everything. You know most makeup artists will have some glitter in their kit. They will have colored eyeliners in their kit. They will have, you know, weird colored eyeshadows. Even if they never use them, they'll have some of it.
Speaker 2:You know, and so I always bring. When I work with her color, I bring texture, I bring different lips and then and different lash styles, and then with hair, I bring pretty much everything I've got hair piecewise and hair wig wise and extension wise in her color. And I bring accessories and I bring whatever I've got that's new and I haven't used on her yet. And how long do you generally allow? I allow three hours with her for hair and makeup, because we talk and you know often you know she might go and try it on to show me and I'll go. Oh, could you just put the top on, because I want to work out like whether I do this or whether I do that or whether it looks good down, and so we've got a bit of dress up time in there and we allow time at the end for playing photos.
Speaker 2:So really it's two hours an hour for hair and hour for makeup and an hour of like fluffing. Yeah, it's nice to have that buffer.
Speaker 2:Well, I mean, I think it's that thing that it's nice to get to that point where someone really likes what you do and they like not being stressed, and so they go. Sure, I'll sit down three hours ahead of when I need to leave instead of going. No, I can't be bothered, you know, and they make you rush. Like where she enjoys the process as much as I do. Like, you know, when you're getting ready with girlfriends and you're like that was my favorite bit. Now I don't want to go to the event because I've got my photos and I look great and I'm done. Like I kind of think the getting ready is one of her wonderful parts that she enjoys. So she's all right about giving me some time, which is wonderful.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And I think that's the first time for that time, from a lot of people, when I do personal events, I just think, like I've been doing here for 33 years now, or maybe 34, and makeup for you know, I don't know 27. So you know, a lot of the young ones are like, oh, I can't do it like that, I'm like you don't need to Like. You know, you just like, as in, ask for a lot of time and all of that. You'll know when that time in your career happens or with which particular jobs you can do it. It won't be a photo shoot, because everything they need time to shoot it, it may be on, you know, a love job.
Speaker 2:When you're shooting something fun and you go, I just want to do one. Look, yeah, I'm going to spend six hours doing a specialized makeup and we are going to do one shot. Great, you know. And when you've got personal clients, you know, instead of charging 90 bucks per hair, you know makeup and doing 10 people in a day running like hell in between people, I go, no, I'm going to charge what I want to charge and I'm going to do two things in a day because I enjoy it like that. You know, if I'm running everywhere and not spending enough time on people, feeling like I haven't really sat back, looked at it, gone actually. Let me just add a bit of that. Oh yeah, I've been taking photos for them and like I love, you know, getting people in their outfit and taking nice photos and taking my ring light so that they go. Oh, my God, thank God you took photos before I went to the event, because nobody's photos were not there or there's someone taking photos and the lighting is terrible and you know. So I like being able to do that as well.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, and it is a luxury, it's very much a luxury having time, but I think you know, once your skills kind of are speaking to certain people, because they won't speak to everybody, there's a lot of people who hate what I do. They don't like my style at all. They're just not my people, which is fine. But the people who like what I do and value my experience and my taste and my style, they're like oh, you want three hours, no problem, yeah, yeah, and I don't take long, I'm pretty quick. Yeah, but I like to chat and tell a story and show a picture and I just enjoy time with people. It's an experience, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:I like people. Yeah, yeah, you can tell that's good. People are good. Yeah, I think so. Yeah, now we were chatting before we came on about career trajectory. Yes, let's get into that.
Speaker 2:Well, look, I have a lot of young artists, whether they're hairdressers or makeup artists, going how can I do what you do? I want to do what you do. And they've been in the industry three and a half minutes and they're like I will only work with, I'm only going this way, I will only. And you're like there is no right way, like people will say to you you have to assist, you have to do it like this, you have to go and do that. Look, it's different for everybody and the industry's changed a lot in recent years.
Speaker 2:You know it used to be that to get into editorial you had to go and assist because otherwise nobody trusted you enough. And the reason for that is, you imagine, like that shoot is like their Oscars, right, there's one chance to get it because the budget will allow you to shoot once, not reshoot it, and like, oh, okay. So to give you an idea, when I came from Brisbane to Sydney, I really noticed a difference in attitude on set, right, and you know people would always talk about it and go oh, sydney, are the so up themselves or whatever. You know they're not friendly or whatever. And Brisbane's always like hi, how are you? You know, so you can always tell someone on set who isn't from Sydney. But I worked it out after a couple of months. What was happening was I'd go on set and I go hi, I'm Sarah, and they'd be like hello.
Speaker 1:Looking up and down.
Speaker 2:And after about two or three hours they'd go so what's your story? And they'd be interested in talking to you. Because my theory on it was they'd be like I've never worked with you, so I don't know if you're any good. Are you going to screw up my day Because I'm doing insert skill here styling hair, makeup and you're doing something that I have to work with. And if your bit's bad, you make me look bad and I won't be able to use a shot. So I'm not sure about you yet, and they'd be really defensive or not defensive, just closed. And so then, once they saw your work and saw that your work was good and that you knew what you were doing, they'd be like oh okay, now we can talk. I'm interested in you now.
Speaker 2:And so when you get that idea that was partly why assisting was really important because you needed to, number one, pick up all the skills, understand photographic light versus daylight, studio light, understand what that lighting was as different to film, tv, what was expected, what finishes they were looking for, why, how little you had to do, how delicate you had to be with your finishes because it would all get picked up in camera, how you were balancing it with the outfits, and you were learning all that when you're assisting, whereas if you just came in I'm a makeup artist a lot of them would go well, I want to do this. And you'd be like, oh wow, babe, it's not about you, I'm sorry, you don't get to railroad this. This is six different elements coming together, and if you have to do nothing on the face or you have to do slick back wet hair, that's what you're doing. And so I think assisting was really important because you needed to firstly understand. You needed to be good at your job, because you were putting everyone else's day at risk and if it was an advertising job, you were putting the client's money at risk, and there was probably 30 people on set shooting then and you didn't have much time, so you had to learn how to be quick, you had to learn how to not get in the way all of those things, and so, back in the day it was, you had to assist blah, blah, blah. And it's helpful because it's the way that you can learn without it being you on the chopping board.
Speaker 2:And I would always say to assistants this is the magic time. I know you've frustrated that your name's not on the credits. I know that you're frustrated that you don't get to put it on your Instagram, because back when I started in Sydney, there wasn't even Instagram. That came around like three or four years later. Really, I know you're frustrated that you don't get to claim this job, but this is the magic time when no one's watching you and you get to pick everybody's brain. You get to see how that artist that you're assisting talks to the art director or the fashion editor or the client, and how they get their own way or how they go. No problem, you don't like it, I'm just going to change it. And they don't get defensive, they don't get offended, they don't get whatever. And so you start going oh, and that was all the important stuff. Most people are pretty decent at their job. Yeah, really, there's very few really terrible makeup artists. To be honest, there's a lot of bad hairdressers, but it's a bit more obvious Makeup. You can hide a little bit more, but yeah, it was all of those being able to do that.
Speaker 2:So I think everybody now doesn't really know what to do because there's not as much editorial. It's like where am I going? What am I even doing? What industry am I fighting for? And so I think for me, mine was this little j-j-j-j-j-j. Right and there was this great speech done by Tim Mention and he went and spoke at Woppa. So he went to Woppa, I think, which is the Western Australia performing arts, blah blah, so he went and spoke to the graduating year and he said something in this speech like not that you shouldn't have a dream, but having a dream can be dangerous because you focus on this endpoint and you may miss all these little golden side roads that take you off into something magical and add to what you can do. So, for instance, I can write. That's one of my sidelines. I can talk on stage, I can present, so that's drama that.
Speaker 2:I've learnt as a sideline. I was a hairdresser, I was a fashion stylist. Having the fashion styling under my belt means I can really understand how stylists need things to happen in conjunction with makeup and hair. They're like, no, she can't put it on and sit down in it, or no, you can't touch it because this is going back to store and if there is a blunt anything on it you will own it and it costs $12,000. And you're like, okay, I'm not touching it.
Speaker 2:All of those things you get to understand with these little magic side roads, right. And you do get to understand that when you're just going for your one goal and that's sometimes how some people's brain works, but I think just don't discount not heading straight towards your goal you know it's like sometimes it's a crab walk, sideways this way, sideways, that way, picking up. You know, almost like in a computer game, where you're like blip, blip. You know you get this like and you're adding all of these things to your, you know your weaponry or your, you know special, you know charges and all of that, and I think that's what it is. So you know, if I'd kind of gone well, I don't want to work in film, so I'm not going to go and work on days on film, like there is so much I would have missed out on.
Speaker 2:I learned so much during that time and I loved it. It was really fun. Yeah, and you know, if I hadn't gone and done styling, like I just think, just be open. Yeah, Just be open. And for me, I don't know, the things that have worked in my life are the things that flow. If I push anything too hard, it just doesn't work. And I mean, some people are like you've got to push, push, push, push, push. It's the only way. And I'm like, yeah, that doesn't work for me. I want to just feel where the energy is flowing and kind of go that way. You know, not all the time, like you know, but you still have to be tenacious and actually do the work. Yeah, yeah, and actually learn the skills and hone those skills and push through not knowing. But you know there's no right way or wrong way.
Speaker 2:Like some people you know may have assisted in fashion, like I had, you know, one of my favorite artists. She used to assist me and she'd assist me on fashion and then one day she was kind of like, well, I'm getting married. I tell you, I kind of really like TV and I was like why is that embarrassing? And also, what are you doing here? Yeah, if you like TV, go and work in it. Yeah, she was like really I thought everyone had to assist, oh, and I was like that's what they tell you, but if you don't like it, yeah, in this world.
Speaker 1:If you like TV, go do it.
Speaker 2:If it's not your vibe. And she went, okay, and she went off and she was on working on two or three TV shows within two weeks, yeah, on the permanent makeup teams. Amazing, she was loving herself. Oh that's so good. Yeah, and like it's never too late to learn, because that same artist also came to me after a while and I'm like, yeah, it's been a little bit quiet. You know what do you think about me doing A hairdressing apprenticeship? And I went, yes, yeah, and she was like, well, because I could go and do a few little hair courses. And I was like you know what, though? Yeah, nothing like a hairdressing apprenticeship, because she wanted to work in TV, which means haircuts, colors, really styling, hair Styling, trouble, hair, hair that's too fine, too thick, too coarse, too everything. And so when you do a little bit of hair training, what you can do, a bit of tonguing.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Maybe a bit of teasing and you're really lost. Yeah, you have no clue what you're doing. Hair is difficult. Hair's like pattern making. You can't learn a bit of pattern making and then make a couture gown. You know, you need to actually understand it Because hair moves like fabric. So you know, she went and did her apprenticeship and when she came out of it I went. So Now that you're working back in TV, did you miss anything? She went, nah, exactly not a thing. But now you are entirely employable on every level, absolutely. You know, yeah, and it just means she can do anything. Now she can go and have a salon in the country if she wants to move to the country, or she can, you know, whatever. Like all those skills are so transferable around the world.
Speaker 1:Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
Speaker 2:Do you still?
Speaker 1:take on assistance. You do not need them as much. You don't need them as much.
Speaker 2:I do sometimes. But I feel bad because a lot of the jobs, now all of the budgets have changed and people don't often have budget for assistance, and so I kind of feel bad going ah, do you want to come and work? And you won't get paid, you know, mm-hmm. And I mean some people are like, oh, I will come, I just want to learn I will just pass up bobby pins and clean your brushes. I'm like, great, well, if you want to, I'd love to have you.
Speaker 2:Yeah, but because I'm so used to working without an assistant, I kind of lean past them to get things. Yeah, and unless they've worked with me a lot, they don't really know what I'm thinking. And there's a couple who would know. They're like, yeah, they've got something for me before. I want it. And I'm like, oh, thank God for you. Yeah, but getting someone to that point, you know it does take a bit of time, and so, yes, but also, you know, when people go, I want to assist you, and it's often hairdressers who will say it Mm-hmm, I'll be like great, you need to stalk me, ok.
Speaker 1:Because I will be with you within a week. And how do they stalk you? Is it an Instagram? Is it an email? Is it a text? Is it a yes? All of the above, everything OK.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and just remind me you're there. And I'd say to them you might not hear back from me, yeah, because I might read it while I'm on set and then forget to. But you need to have enough self-confidence that you don't think that's me going. Oh, I don't like you, which is ridiculous. Yeah, you need to go. Hey, just letting you know I'm around on weekdays, you know if you need me, do you need anything this month? You know and you know. But just keep being that person Because you know what. There'll. Something will come up and I'll go. Oh, my God, I need somebody who. Oh, what about that girl who keeps Well? That guy who keeps Well, what about? What was their name? Again? And because it's recent, I'll be able to find it. You know what I mean.
Speaker 2:Yeah that's great, but that's good, yeah, because I think You've got to remember that the people you want to assist are also artists, so they're not always totally confident. I don't think everybody wants to assist me. Yeah, I don't think everyone enjoys assisting me. They might go oh that was boring, didn't get to do any makeup or hair. You know, because there's people, that that's how they feel and so I, if I don't keep hearing from you, I don't think you want to, so I won't pick up the phone and go hey, do you want to do this?
Speaker 1:Do you like it?
Speaker 2:I'll be like, oh, I'm not going to call you unless I think you want it. Yeah, yeah, yeah, because if you stop calling me, I'm not going to call you.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:You know what I mean, and a lot of artists are like that. They'll be like oh, I feel like I don't know if you really want to come and be with me.
Speaker 1:Well, she messaged me six months ago. I don't. Yeah, that's a really good. That's a good point.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Very good, so if there are people that you really love their work. One bit of advice don't say, hi, I want to come and pick your brain. It just feels weird. It feels like, hi, I want to come and take everything from you and then I'll go.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:I don't know why it sounds like that I like it.
Speaker 2:I don't feel like that and it's like anyone who has a sister to me knows I just will teach you the whole time, if I can Like, if we've got enough time, I'll go hey look, I'm doing this because of this. Do you have any questions? What questions have you got? What questions have you got? And people go, oh god, on the spot, I don't know, but you know. And at the end of the day I go, right, what have you learned? Yeah, tell me, you've got to talk it through, otherwise you'll forget it and they'll go oh, when you use that product for that I wouldn't have used that, but I thought that was really good. Ok, great, that's something new in your little, you know. And so it's not that I don't want to give information, I do. But it's people's attitude, you know. You want people who are there to help you, help them, not just take everything. No, no, I get that. That's just human nature, right?
Speaker 1:Yeah, so make sure your approach is nice and warm. It's helpful. I want to be helpful.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, I love your work. I want to be helpful. Yeah, right, yeah, like that's it, I think, because when you know someone is willing to turn up early, help you with your stupid bags, get you a cup of tea while you're rushing through another, look all the things you can't do for yourself that aren't anything to do with the actual skill, yeah, but they get to watch you, yeah. And I think a lot of younger artists don't understand the magic in that moment, because a lot of them think, well, I'm not, you know, I'm not on the list, I'm not the one who's talking to the photographer, I'm not the one who can put it on my Instagram, oh yeah. And they get really funny about it and you're like, wow, no, this is the magic time. You're just learning, you don't need to have all that.
Speaker 1:I'd hang out with anyone on set if I like them, like. Oh, I just think it's so fun. Yeah, now you get to look at all their stuff and see how they do things, because everyone does things so differently.
Speaker 2:You know what and that's something I would say to young artists If you had 10 artists, established artists in a line and said to them all you know, do an eyeliner, do a red lip, do anything, they'd all do it differently. They would use different products, different tools, they'd have different ways of doing it, different approaches. So you can learn so much. Yeah, and I think I felt lucky that I learned from like 10 different makeup artists or whoever Whoever I was on set with back in the day, because I did pick and choose. Oh, I like the way they did that, or I like the way they did it. I didn't have a teacher at college going this is the way you cannot do. I'd be like whatever I'll do it, however, it's going to work. So that comes from when I was an apprentice hairdresser. You know we got trained in Sassoon's style cutting.
Speaker 2:So if you're not a hairdresser Sassoon's method is particularly scientific, very specific, sectioning, angling, you know, blah, blah, blah and it's rigid, like really. It's like perfectionistic in a beautiful way. We got trained in that. And then Benny was like, okay, now we're going to break all those rules. I'm like no, but you can't. He's like, yeah, you can. I'm like no, no, but that's how you do it. And he was like, if you can cut hair with a broken beer bottle and it looks good, it's a good haircut.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And I was like what? But that was like the making of me as an artist, really, because it didn't matter what I used, yeah, as long as it looked good in the end. Because your client doesn't give a shit how you're getting there no, they don't. To be honest, you know your client on an ad agency shoot, like you know an advertising shoot they don't care how you made the skin shiny, they couldn't care, as long as it registers on the shot, yeah. Or you know your client who's going to a wedding doesn't care how you make their hair last in a wave, they just want it to last.
Speaker 2:And so it's like cut the corners, do what you got to do, use the products you've got to use. Use things that aren't meant for the things that you're using them for to get what you need. Yeah, you know. And it's funny like training people, like when you do, when I do education haven't done education for a while because I think you know organizing it myself and you know sorting out, like locations and food, and I'm like no, people like when are you going to do a masterclass? I'm like, oh, when somebody else organizes it, I'll organize it for you, I love organizing.
Speaker 2:I love doing education right, but it's all the other stuff I go oh, whatever. But you know, when I'm educating people, I'll often find that they are very makeup artisty or very hairdresser-y. In that this is how it has to happen. It must be in this order. Like a hairdresser will often blow dry for 30 minutes before they use a straightening iron on the hair and I'm like why did you blow dry it? Because you just did 30 minutes of busy work to make it like what To justify your own existence, that you're doing lots of work so you're worth the money you're charging. It's like no, no, no. The final product is what the money you're charging you know is for. Yeah, they don't care if it takes you 12 minutes or three hours. Well, they probably care if it takes you three hours you know, on one hairstyle.
Speaker 2:Yeah, they're like oh, kill me now. Yeah, but you know it's the end product and the experience.
Speaker 1:Yeah, sarah, yes, I could keep talking to you all night.
Speaker 2:I know, sorry, we've probably haven't even done like one-third of the questions.
Speaker 1:No, no, no, this is great. I love it. I love it. But, yeah, we've been going a while. I love it. Have you got any final words of advice for makeup artists, hairdressers, anyone who wants to work in the world?
Speaker 2:Well, look, I think probably one of my pieces of advice is try a bit of everything. Do it for free, because then there's no pressure. Go and assist people for free, even if you don't get to get your hands dirty. See what everything's like, you know. If you're a salon hairdresser and you're interested in doing photo shoots, go out on photo shoots. See if you actually like it, because a lot of them don't like the pressure, or you know whatever. You know.
Speaker 2:If you're a makeup artist who does bridal and all you want to do is work on film, find somebody and go. Please can you take me out? If you don't want to, can you recommend someone? I will literally clean brushes in the van and just come on set and just literally be there and hand you a bottle of water. You know whatever, whatever you can get on, go and try all those things, because you need to work out what makes your soul sink, and you don't know till you try it.
Speaker 2:You know your idea of what it would be like working in fashion and your idea of what it would be like doing bridal. Your idea of what it would be like being on film is different to what it's truly like, probably, yeah. So try everything. So that's my first thing Try as much as you can that vaguely interests you, and then don't stop learning if you can help it, because fashion changes all the time. So you know things that I learned 30 years ago in fashion. Now and I can do them because I learned them 30 years ago, and you go ah, I get to use that skill.
Speaker 1:Funny, like when I'm Finger waves are paying off.
Speaker 2:Literally. When I moved to Sydney, finger waves were in all the mags and like it was like big, strong, waved hair and I did it on a shoot. And they were like how can you do that? And I was like what do you mean? And they were like nobody can get that hair. And I was like, oh, that's when I was like I didn't know that people didn't get trained in that, right, you know. So practice stuff when you don't have an audience, like if you're in a salon and you want to do hair that you know you can't do on a client, get a friend in, get a model in on a Saturday afternoon and do it after hours. Like, just practice, do play Like you're used to. You know what I mean. When you first started, and if you're first starting, don't stop practicing. Don't think everyone has to pay you. Oh my God. Like when I was an apprentice hairdresser 40 hours work, I got $127.40 a week, a week.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:You know I've worked, I still work for free all the time. People think you, you know you shouldn't work for free. I'm like, well, you know what? Sorry, but any artistic endeavor it's kind of the most fun bit. And it's not saying you have to work for free all the time. You have to assist people for free all the time, but often they don't have money to pay you. So if you want to learn from them, go and you just think of it as free education, which is priceless.
Speaker 2:You know you're not like having to pay for every time you stand behind somebody and learn. You know, so often people will have you know partners who are tradies or they work in an office, and then they're like why are you doing work without getting paid? That's ridiculous. They should pay you for everything. And it's like, yeah, maybe that would be nice, but it just doesn't work like that in an artistic world. So if you want to get paid for everything, go and work in another job. You know what I mean? It's really as simple as that. If you don't love it enough, then but if you love it enough, you'll do some work for free. I mean, I'm 33 years and I'm still working for free and yes, I get paid well when I do work. You know on paid jobs and stuff now, but you know that's like this. You know that old quote overnight success, overnight success usually takes about 15 years.
Speaker 1:Yes, yeah, and I think people do look. Well, I know I've looked at artists and I'm like, oh, I just want to be there, but you don't know what's gone into what they've, how they got there. Yes, yeah, Exactly, thank you.
Speaker 2:Sarah.
Speaker 1:Oh, my pleasure. Thanks for having me.
Speaker 2:It was wonderful.
Speaker 1:Pleasure. Thank you so much, oh my pleasure.
Speaker 2:I hope there was some little gold nuggets in there. There was lots, oh good.
Speaker 1:Thanks for joining me today on the Makeup Insider. I hope you've enjoyed the show. Please don't forget to rate and subscribe, and I'll see you soon. Bye for now.